200q20v Digest, Vol 75, Issue 1
Roger Woodbury
rmwoodbury at roadrunner.com
Fri Jan 1 14:45:12 PST 2010
Scott: This is the same thread that appears on all the Audi lists from time
to time. Having been a party to the "nickel and dime" syndrome-excuse for
buying a new or different car for nearly 40 years, I have some observations
that I will make.
First of all, separate the issues so you can clearly consider what they all
are. You have a 1991 Audi Avant with 140,000 miles on it. It is difficult
for the majority of the motoring public to understand the concept of driving
a car for nineteen years and to continue to drive it far longer than 100,000
miles. So, if the public image of what you drive is at all important then
your decision has already been made. Buy a Subaru.
Now, if you really like the Audi and have no particular emotional desire to
have a different or NEW car, then read further and do some more serious
arithmetic. The Audi will win hands down for the next 150,000 miles. Here
is how I look at it.
1. The new Forester will cost at least $22,000 by the time you get it,
including sales tax (6%), and probably including trade in for the Audi, if
you trade it. I am assuming that the list price on the Subaru website
doesn't' end up getting inflated out of sight. So, let's say your base
investment is twenty grand.
2. I have no idea what the excise or use tax rate is for a new car in
Vermont, but I will be surprised if it doesn't exceed $1,000 in the first
year. If Vermont works at all like Maine, this will go down to a bottom
rate over seven years, but the first three years or so will be pretty hefty,
but as I say, I don't really know how much this will be. Suffice it to say
that it will likely be considerably greater than any annual use tax on the
old car.
3. On the new Forester if you finance it, you will have to carry
comprehensive and collision insurance, and on the new car, that will
probably increase the cost of insuring the car about $1,000 above what it
will cost to insure the '91 Avant annually. It might be some less than
that, but it won't be a LOT less I don't believe.
So now you have a new Forester and have spend somewhere in north of Twenty
grand.
You bought the Audi new and have maintained it. What does it need to be
like new now? I am going to guess that it probably should have the heater
control valve replaced. It's made of plastic and can get old and just give
up. If it fails at the wrong time, the car will be stranded or worst case,
could catastrophically overheat. So, replace it now.
Do the rear control arms and trailing links all need to be renewed now or
have they all been done? If they have been done, and if the shocks and
shock mounts have all been replaced (quite possibly between 80,000 and
110,000 miles), well and good. If not the harsher driving terrain will
likely finish them off this year.
How about the clutch? Been done? Is it at all weak? It might be good for
another fifty thousand miles if it isn't weak now.
Using any oil? I mean, using a quart every time you get gasoline? If you
are NOT using a quart of oil every 400 miles or less, then I would guess the
engine is fine, and will need nothing except timing belt and water pump
service. If you replaced that at 60,000 mile intervals, the next major
engine service should be around 180,000 miles, maybe next year. If it were
my car and I was moving to a new environment, I would have it done now,
early, at the same time I tended to the heat control valve and perhaps some
other little niggling things that never really got done before. You know
what they are.
How about the exhaust system. It could be good to go, but at 140K it might
be showing signs of giving up. My 20Valve Avant went past 160,000 miles
before the front muffler gave up. This might be a pricey item, if you use
OEM parts, but a Stebro (if it is still available) might be less than $1100
by the time you get it, and another couple of hundred to get it installed.
Any bearing noise? Center driveshaft bearing? I replaced mine at 160K, and
also had to replace one CV joint.
Let's put aside any cosmetic items that the car might need for now.
Cosmetic restoration may or may not be something that is even worth
considering, at least for the purposes of getting the maximum value out of
the Audi in opposition to buying the Subaru.
So: How are we doing? The options are spending at least twenty grand for a
new car, AND paying the ongoing higher costs of owning and operating it
versus continuing to maintain the Audi in first class condition, and taking
advantage of the fact that it is a superior vehicle to the Subaru, and it's
depreciation gives it a day to day reduction in overall cost of operation.
Let's assume that the rear and front suspensions both can stand renewing,
including struts and bushings and all that assorted stuff; that there is an
issue with the a/c that requires a compressor and receiver/drier to fix;
that the timing belt/waterpump service is done and a bunch of other stuff is
added in. All of which done professionally, but at the end of it, the car
runs as well as it ever has run.
Since I bought a 200 20Valve Avant that had 160,000 miles on it or so, and
brought to my mechanic for a complete mechanical overhaul sufficient to make
it dependable for day to day driving, and considering that I had to do ALL
of the things that I have suggested on the list, and others as well, it cost
a just about five grand to do it all. I did not need a clutch, nor did I
need any engine work. I did no body work, and wouldn't have because my eBay
special was simply not good enough to justify that level of restoration.
Your choice: Twenty grand for a brand new Subaru or perhaps five or six
grand to make your car perfect for the next fifty thousand miles at least.
Which makes more sense to you?
I realize that moving to Vermont will present some additional challenges for
you. For instance, do you already have a mechanic lined up who can do
quality work on that car? If not, you will need to find one, and it won't
be the Audi dealer. That is the most difficult choice of all: who to get
to work on the car.
I do not work aside from oil checking and that weekly stuff on our cars. My
wife's 100CS Avant Quattro has 148,000 miles from new. We bought the car
with 39,000 miles on it nine years ago for $15,000. We have spent around
$15,000 in routine maintenance over the past nine years and have done
EVERYTHING that the car needed in order to have it in service without
failures for the next 150,000 miles. It is not rusty underneath and will
easily run past 300,000 miles, although at some point we do need to have
the exterior refinished. (Maine, like Vermont is a tough place for a car to
be in the winter.)
My car is a '90 V8 Quattro that has around seventy thousand original mile on
it. It is probably going to be the last daily driver that I will ever have,
and I intend on keeping it maintained as well as my wife's car, and
maintained by the same professional mechanic. Not cheap, but compared to
buying a new car, and paying all the added costs, it is far less expensive.
Your opinion may vary. But in my opinion there have been no significant
advancements in automotive design or construction since your car was built
to warrant spending long dollars to buy a new one. Having an airbag able to
pop out of every conceivable orifice, having a gizzie hole in the dash to
plug in some sort of cell phone, and having a car with seventeen inch tall
wheels are not engineering advancements in my opinion As I said, your
opinion may differ.
I realize that I don't have a vote, but if I did, I would say that if you
truly know your car, find a good new independent Audi guy in Vermont to
entrust your car to. Have it maintained by him as though you intend to
drive it for another ten years. Take the fifteen thousand dollars you have
saved by not plunking it down on an inferior Japanese car, and let it
accumulate interest. In ten years you may not be able to buy some of the
parts that the Avant will need, and at that point, maybe you will need to
buy the Forester afterall. Or maybe another old '91 Avant just for the
parts.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
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Behalf Of 200q20v-request at audifans.com
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 3:00 PM
To: 200q20v at audifans.com
Subject: 200q20v Digest, Vol 75, Issue 1
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Today's Topics:
1. Vehicle Change for the new year? (Scott Gilman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:22:44 -0500
From: Scott Gilman <scottegilman at mac.com>
Subject: Vehicle Change for the new year?
To: 200q20v at audifans.com
Message-ID: <3B33C78A-5A43-4DB6-8F54-E099589A487E at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Happy New Year to all the forum members! We just returned from
southern VT where we'll be moving later in the year. Our '91 200 20V
ran great on the trip, but I was thinking that with a job change and
the significant territory I'll have to cover, the 200 may not be the
right vehicle for me. Now it looks like I'll be driving 30K plus
miles a year for work and I'm having second thoughts about the cost of
maintaining this car with so many miles a year. It would be
difficult to part with the 200 since I've had it since new and I've
kept it very well maintained. I've got all receipts from all the
maintenance/repairs so the file is thick enough to choke a horse-so
I'm well aware what it takes to maintain the car. I've never added up
the costs because it would be depressing. Unlike many of you on the
list, I am not a wrencher and I'm not likely to have the time to learn
with my new work commitments. The '91 has 130K so it's a relatively
low mileage car and I'm confident that it would be good for 300K plus
based on what I've seen other well cared for Audis get. However,
these cars are expensive to maintain for the non-wrenchers. We're not
in a position to keep an extra car around so the Audi becomes my high
mileage commuter or finds another home. I've been thinking of a new
Subaru Forester, it's AWD, runs on 87 octane, gets decent gas mileage
and would be pretty practical-maybe that's why there are so many
Subarus in VT.
Scott
NYC
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