[s-cars] NF or 7A block substitution (and possibly MC)

Sat Mar 27 15:08:53 PDT 2010

Cody,

I've got a few things waiting in the wings, but looking for a best alternative.  The guy
who blew the DS200 engine owes me and should have an engine - probably a 7A.  Also have
a 3B possible - blown HG, but I plan to teardown and B&B anything I get.

LMK how much for shipping and I can paypal you for the condensor.

LMK when you are headed up this way.

Cheers!

Ben 

-----Original Message-----
From: Cody Forbes [mailto:cody at 5000tq.com] 
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:04 PM
To: Ben Swann
Cc: P Cole; <s-car-list at audifans.com>; Quattro List; <200q20v at audifans.com>
Subject: Re: [s-cars] NF or 7A block substitution (and possibly MC)

I've only got two MC's both of which I need and that KH that you are welcome to. Wish I
could help.

-Cody (mobile)

On Mar 27, 2010, at 3:28 PM, "Ben Swann" <benswann at verizon.net> wrote:

> Well after all the Q&A regarding trying to use an NF block I have and 
> even had possible solutions, it won't happen.  The NF block is NFG - 
> except to use as a counterweight on my boat tide compensation system 
> (glorified boat anchor).
>
> So I'll have to find another engine or block to toy with.  A short 
> block from 3B, MC or AAN would be most straightforward.  I have 
> rebuild parts for 7A as well.
>
> Ben
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cody Forbes [mailto:cody at 5000tq.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:54 AM
> To: Ben Swann
> Cc: P Cole; <s-car-list at audifans.com>; Quattro List; 
> <200q20v at audifans.com
> >
> Subject: Re: [s-cars] NF or 7A block substitution (and possibly MC)
>
> No, 3B rods will not fit a MC crank. All 10v cranks are 46mm rod 
> journals, all 20v cranks are 48mm journals. All rods fit all pistons, 
> but 10v rods must be on a 10v crank and 20v rods on a 20v crank.
>
> I'll add that my direct experiance is with turbo engines of 20v and 
> 10v plus 7A, but I am very sure that the above applies to all Audi 
> 5cyl before the new ones of recent manufacture.
>
> -Cody (mobile)
>
> On Mar 27, 2010, at 12:50 AM, "Ben Swann" <benswann at verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> OK - looks like I'm getting somewhere.
>>
>> NF block (have the NF crank, pistons and rods but probably won't
>> use) with some
>> combination of pistons and rods. AFAIK this block does come with 
>> piston oil squirters installed.  If not I can install some - if I 
>> recall it is not a difficult retrofit.  No problem machining oil 
>> return into the boss on the block - I forget if there is a return in 
>> the 3B pan like there is on the AAN.
>>
>> I might be able to use the 3B(20V) crank from wasted engine if it is 
>> not shot peened by the flailing rod ***story below***
>>
>> If 3B crank shot then I have MC(10V) crank
>>
>> I have complete set of 3B rods and Pistons - not the ones in the 
>> messed up engine.
>>
>> I also should have MC pistons and rods, but sounds like using 3B 
>> internals is best.
>>
>> So in short, I think if the 3B crank is wasted then my best choice it 
>> to install MC-1 crank with 3B rods and pistons.  There ought not be 
>> any need to use special head gasket or anything like that.
>>
>> Hopefully I can do a quick teardown and build in order to get the car 
>> on the road.  In the long run, I have the 3.7 aluminum V8 I'm 
>> building to accommodate twin turbos!
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> Story *** I lent the Deerslayer http://www.gtquattro.com/ 
>> 200Q20V8.html to a friend - ig mistake.  He must have mashed the gas 
>> pedal while merging.  Said he was not able to shut it down 
>> immediately and engine bounced off the rev. limiter for about 15 sec.  
>> He called to report what he thought was noisy lifters.  The car went 
>> over 150 miles with the rod coming loose and eventually flapping 
>> about.  All this time thinking it was noisy lifters!  Driver finally 
>> realized the problem was not coming from the top of the engine when 
>> the car stalled.  Upon restart, noticed the noise had gotten worse 
>> and saw some oil leaking around the turbo - still thought problem was 
>> due to losing oil pressure thru the
>> oil line.   And no I was not the driver!  The minute I started the
>> car up I winced at
>> the carnage! So much for no good deeds going unpunished.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cody Forbes [mailto:cody at 5000tq.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:15 AM
>> To: Ben Swann
>> Cc: P Cole; s-car-list at audifans.com; Quattro List; 
>> 200q20v at audifans.com
>> Subject: Re: [s-cars] NF or 7A block substitution (and possibly MC)
>>
>> Nope, the 20v cars used different size rod journals on the 
>> crankshaft.
>> You'd need a 20v crank to match the 20v rods. Or you can use a 10v 
>> crank (turbo and NA are the same) with MC rods and 3B pistons.
>>
>> IIRC the only difference in the bare block between post 1985 10v 
>> blocks is the hole for the turbo oil return and I'm not sure if the 
>> non-turbo blocks have the piston oil squirters. All other turbo 
>> related parts (oil filter housing, turbo coolant return freeze plug, 
>> head, etc) is all a matter of bolting it on.
>>
>> -Cody (mobile)
>>
>> On Mar 26, 2010, at 11:04 PM, "Ben Swann" <benswann at verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Paul, all!
>>>
>>> OK - How will the combination of NF block with 3B Pistons and Rods 
>>> work?  This is a combination I have/can assemble with parts on hand.
>>>
>>> Is the NF block different than the MC blocks or is the difference 
>>> crank and rods?
>>>
>>> Ben
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: P Cole [mailto:pcolegrps at comcast.net]
>>> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:25 PM
>>> To: Ben Swann
>>> Subject: RE: NF or 7A block substitution (and possibly MC)
>>>
>>> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 19:48:04 -0400, Ben Swann wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks all for the replies so far.  I just wanted to know if I 
>>>> could use the NF block
>>> as a reasonable substitute for a blown 3B.   I have in my garage
>>> with all parts to
>>> rebuild the NF.  I may have an MC sitting here too.  I have 
>>> internals for both MC-1 and NF.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting that the NF which is high compression motor makes low 
>>>> comp when putting on
>>> a 3B head - doesn't make sense.  When you put an NF head on an MC-1 
>>> block - that is good combination.  MC-1 is a good substitute for the 
>>> 3B.  So, what makes the compression go so low?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Combustion chamber SIZE- in the 10v heads it's 27cc in the 20v heads 
>>> it's 44cc ( or something like that)
>>>
>>>> I thought that the NF and 7A were similar, if not the same block? I 
>>>> don't have a 7A but
>>> can get one if that is a better alternative.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Piston size and dish depth are another BIG difference between the 
>>> various I5 engines.
>>> The high compression 10v's have small dish pistons in the same 
>>> combustion chamber as the 10 turbo cars do hence the higher CR.
>>>
>>>> Is there an ideal combination:  on hand - NF block, 3B pistons and 
>>>> rods,  MC-1 pistons
>>> and rods,  NF pistons and rods.  Rings and bearings, seals for them.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to use what I have to put together a decent block to 
>>>> install 3B head on -
>>> without getting into procuring odd and esoteric combinations.  Just 
>>> want to use what I have on hand, possibly procuring head-gasket and 
>>> a few odd bits.  No problem machining oil return line - BTDT.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The bigger issue is the crank and pistons - I think all the I5's had
>>> forged cranks, all the turbo cars did for sure. The pistons in most
>>> NA cars are cast whereas the turbo cars all had forged pistons. I
>>> think Audi used forged rods in all the I5's but I'd have to check  
>>> the
>>> NA cars.
>>>
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>> S-car-list in copy because I thought I'd seen this done for AAN
>>>>
>>> --
>>> //************************
>>> Paul R. Cole::pcolegrps at comcast.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>