[Biturbos4] Turbos Reliability & Replacement Cost (was: 2000 S4 Running Hot)

[Quincy Chiang]

Hi Rohan and all,

I got this form someone on the AW B5-S4 forum today who recently went to Stage 3-.  Here're the cost of his upgrade (all prices below are USD):

$2,700 - K04 turbos w/ inlet pipes (supposedly K03s are more expensive than K04s!)
$325 - Piggie downpipes
$450 - RS4 clutch
$40 - manual boost controller (required to run with K03 chipped software)
$2,500-3,000 - Labour + miscellaneous stuff (hoses, RS4 engine and tranny mounts...)
= $6515 USD
(= $8144 Cdn)

Now if your car wasn't chipped before, than add the cost of that, about $700 depending on which flavour.  Then add $1000 for an exhaust to compliment the heavier breathing, all of a sudden you're sitting at $8,215.  if you're anywhere close to 60k miles, you better get the timing belt and water pump (and othere related stuff) done as well, so add another say $600.  The total comes to $8,815 ($11,019 Cdn).  What you get is a much more reliable torque monster, probably getting 350hp at the crank, not too shabby at all.

So lets say the turbos go in 3 years time, you'll have to save up $245/month starting now for this procedure.  But then we haven't even touched other stuff yet, like tires, brakes, suspension and other miscellaneous stuff that probably won't cost a whole lot to fix, but will seriously put a dent to you K04 fund when you add them all up.

For me right now from the financial side of things, if sh!t hits the fan in say 3 years, I can probably afford to go Stage3-, but that means I'll have nothing that year going ito my savings and RRSP, and I'll be living pretty poorly for a while.  I can do it but common sense keep telling me this ain't right.

The worst part is, looking at the North American auto market for the next 2 model years, there's nothing out there I like and can afford.  The Mini Cooper S is the only car right now that I like...  I'm just freaking torn on what to do!

Quincy




----- Original Message -----
From: Rohan Singh <rohanj_singh at yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Biturbos4] Turbos Reliability & Replacement Cost (was: 2000 S4 Running Hot)

> The discussion about turbo failure always gives me the
> jitters after hearing the mileage at which S4 owners
> experience this! I bought my 2001 S4 with a build date
> of July 2000 in August last year in Toronto with 78K
> kilometres - not miles. The car now has 103K
> kilometres and the turbo's sound fine except for a
> slight "dentist drill" sound when under load between
> 1500 - 2200 rpm - I don't really remember hearing this
> sound for the first few thousand kilometres after
> buying it, but again I am beginning to get to know my
> car a lot more after tuning in to this forum and
> perhaps I wasn't paying attention before. I can't hear
> any sound at very low rpms or above 2200 RPM. I have
> no idea how the car was driven by the first owner but
> the car was in great condition and completely stock
> when I bought it from an Audi dealer with the 2 year
> certified warranty. I have kept the car stock and
> changed the oil (synthetic) every 4000 kilometres
> since 78K. The car runs beautifully and I enjoy
> driving it every single day - never fails to give me a
> rush! I always warm up and cool down. I keep wondering
> at what point I am going to experience turbo failure.
> I do know that if the cost of replacing a turbo is
> around $7K Canadian and this happened after my audi
> assured warranty expired next July, I would go ahead
> and do it. Just the taxes on a new audi A4 (lets say
> 50 grand after really loading it up) come close to 60%
> of that cost! I feel that the styling is timeless and
> that it will go down as an Audi classic. Does anyone
> know about the total cost of upgrading to to a full
> package for the K04's (turbo's, chip, exhaust,
> etc.)and if there are any independent shops in Toronto
> that do this kind of work? If my turbo's go, they had
> better do so before my Audi Assured warranty expires
> next summer! Maybe I should just drive my car hard for
> the next few months hoping that they will die out
> before the warranty expires!
> 
> Rohan
> '01 S4 Manual
> 
> --- Quincy Chiang <b5quattro at shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Grant, JY and all,
> > 
> > This has been an interesting and informative
> > discussion.  From what I've read and heard on these
> > list and AW forums, it seems like luck has more to
> > do with the turbos failing than anything else. 
> > Obviously chipping kills them a lot sooner, and
> > people they have chipped their 2.7t should realize
> > that, but even non-chipped car are not safe from it
> > either.  Someone on this list 2 weeks ago (sorry I
> > forgot who) had his turbos bit the dust at the
> > tender age of 52k miles, and he supposedly followed
> > all the usual procedures like proper warmup,
> > cooldown and uses synthetic oil, and his car wasn't
> > chipped.
> > 
> > So we've established how and why the turbos fail (ok
> > maybe not, it still seems more like a black art), my
> > next question is how many owners are actually
> > willing to shell out $7500 Cdn ($6000 USD) to
> > replace those pesky K03s when they meet their maker?
> > 
> > Based on the above and maybe one other recent
> > failure cases (both cars not chipped), lets say the
> > turbos die at somewhere around 55,000 miles
> > (~88,500km), right now I'm more than half way there,
> > and I expect to get there within 3 years.  At that
> > mileage, I'd definitely have the timing belt job
> > done while the engine's out, and perhaps replace the
> > clutch as well, so that'd bring the total to nearly
> > $10,000 Cdn ($8000 USD).  But here's the kicker, why
> > would you put in K03s and you can get K04s for just
> > a little more money?  It makes sense from the
> > reliability perspective, and I'm not one to refuse
> > some extra power.  But once you do that, it quickly
> > snowballs into other things to get a decent stage 3-
> > setup, like K03 chip/software, higher fuel pressure
> > regulator, MBC, exhaust and maybe downpipes.  Then
> > you'll need some custom tuning with a VAG-COM, which
> > can be fun and/or frustrating at the same time.
> > 
> > The thing is that once the turbos die, you now must
> > replace them just to get the car running, otherwise
> > the car's worthless, can't even sell it.  And once
> > you've committed to turbo swap (either straight K03s
> > or a stage 3- setup), you better keep the car for a
> > long long time to recoup the cost.
> > 
> > So now with all that in perspective, how many here
> > thinks they have no problem going down this road in
> > say 2-3 years?  Personally I'm having a tough time
> > justifying this potentially hugh expense,
> > especically when I expect to get my own place in a
> > year's time.  I'd like to hear your opinions and
> > comments.
> > 
> > Quincy
> > '01.5 S4 - keep or sell?
> > '90 CoupeQ - not going anywhere
> > '05 MCS - sitting at the dealer's lot calling my
> > name...
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Grant <gfl1 at optonline.net>
> > Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:00 am
> > Subject: Re: [Biturbos4] 2000 S4 Running Hot
> > 
> > > This is probably very good info, but nothing is
> > that clear-cut.
> > > ALL turbos are delicate and fail.  S4 engine bays
> > run hot.  Oil 
> > > cokes 
> > > at turbo temperatures.  QED.
> > > 
> > > Its not only the early ones, although I do
> > understand that the oil 
> > > feed/drain plumbing was undersized and thus jy is
> > (to the best of 
> > > my 
> > > limited knowledge, I dont have the statistics - no
> > one does) 
> > > largely 
> > > correct.
> > > 
> > > Grant
> > > On Aug 29, 2005, at 11:41 PM, j y wrote:
> > > 
> > > > R,
> > > >  
> > > > I mentioned in my msg to you last night - ONLY
> > THE EARLY S4s 
> > > (like 
> > > > mine) had the risk of catastrophic turbo
> > failure. It had NOTHING 
> > > to do 
> > > > with the TYPE OF OIL USED - It had to do with a
> > POOR turbo 
> > > design (the 
> > > > oil inlets and ducts were too small thus
> > restricting oil flow 
> > > and its 
> > > > cooling ability) that was corrected in the MY
> > 01.5 (2001.5) S4s. 
> > > So, 
> > > > early S4s that experienced catastrophic turbo
> > failure under, or 
> > > just 
> > > > beyond the warranty period, were given UPGRADED
> > (K03) 
> > > replacements by 
> > > > AOA.
> > > >  
> > > > YOU NEED TO FIND OUT WHEN YOUR S4 WAS BUILT. The
> > build date 
> > > should be 
> > > > on the side of the driver door. The build date
> > on my S4 was 
> > > 11/99. It 
> > > > was sold as a MY 2000 S4. I CLEARLY own an EARLY
> > S4. There is no 
> > > need 
> > > > for you to purchase K04s unless you plan to
> > siginificantly 
> > > modify the 
> > > > power, like I said in my msg to you. I hope this
> > helps clear 
> > > things up 
> > > > for you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > r harout <carrera3_2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> so let me ask a question (nervoulsy)
> > > >>
> > > >> How likely is it that I was have catastrophic
> > turbo
> > > >> failure if the car has only run with regular
> > oil--but
> > > >> chnaged frequently?
> > > >>
> > > >> Inevitable? What are the signs? I will use
> > Mobil 1
> > > >> moving forward, but the owners before me did
> > not.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maybe I should order the K04s now so I get them
> > in
> > > >> time for failure!
> > > >>
> > > >> --- Grant wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Agreed. Cool is actually not good. The only
> > > >> > regular failures I know
> > > >> > of are turbo-related failures in which the
> > oil
> > > >> > coked. Coking takes
> > > >> > place WAY above 200deg. If you find
> > differently,
> > > >> > please contact the
> > > >> > steel industry - they want your technology
> > badly.
> > > >> > As to "how hot"?
> > > >> > the flash point for mobil1 is >400deg (F).
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Admittedly, the hot underhood temperatures
> > > >> > contribute to this, but I'm
> > > >> > nto sure how much it improves things to
> > extract the
> > > >> > heat to the
> > > >> > radiator, which then blows the heat through
> > the
> > > >> > engine bay, which .....
> > > >> >
> > > >> > So who's had a turbo failure that ran
> > synthetic,
> > > >> > cooled down after hard
> > > >> > runs, and warmed up in the cold?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Anyone?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > And who's had a ring job under ANY
> > circumstances.
> > > >> > Anyone?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Grant
> > > >> > On Aug 29, 2005, at 2:53 PM, costco wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > A lot of research has been performed with
> > regards
> > > >> > to cylinder wear vs.
> > > >> > > coolant temperature in the 70's and 80's
> > amongst
> > > >> > the automakers.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > 192 degrees F is actually optimal in most
> > engines.
> > > >> > More or less is
> > > >> > > application specific. I would never put a
> > 160
> > > >> > degree thermostat into an
> > > >> > > engine that prior had a 180 degree
> > thermostat. 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
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