[Biturbos4] Turbos Reliability & Replacement Cost (was: 2000 S4 Running Hot)

[j y]

"supposedly K03s are more expensive than K04s!" = Nah...when my K03s were replaced 2 years ago..the delaer price list had them listed in the $1400 range for the pair...ICs were listed for $800 (I've since replaced them with AWE ICs for $1200). I wouldn't be surprised if K03s are even cheaper today..but at dealer prices..they were less than K04s. Also, I've seen K04s listed for less than what that lister on AW paid. You definitely have to SHOP AROUND when buying parts for these cars - I do.


Quincy Chiang <b5quattro at shaw.ca> wrote:
Hi Rohan and all,

I got this form someone on the AW B5-S4 forum today who recently went to Stage 3-. Here're the cost of his upgrade (all prices below are USD):

$2,700 - K04 turbos w/ inlet pipes (supposedly K03s are more expensive than K04s!)
$325 - Piggie downpipes
$450 - RS4 clutch
$40 - manual boost controller (required to run with K03 chipped software)
$2,500-3,000 - Labour + miscellaneous stuff (hoses, RS4 engine and tranny mounts...)
= $6515 USD
(= $8144 Cdn)

Now if your car wasn't chipped before, than add the cost of that, about $700 depending on which flavour. Then add $1000 for an exhaust to compliment the heavier breathing, all of a sudden you're sitting at $8,215. if you're anywhere close to 60k miles, you better get the timing belt and water pump (and othere related stuff) done as well, so add another say $600. The total comes to $8,815 ($11,019 Cdn). What you get is a much more reliable torque monster, probably getting 350hp at the crank, not too shabby at all.

So lets say the turbos go in 3 years time, you'll have to save up $245/month starting now for this procedure. But then we haven't even touched other stuff yet, like tires, brakes, suspension and other miscellaneous stuff that probably won't cost a whole lot to fix, but will seriously put a dent to you K04 fund when you add them all up.

For me right now from the financial side of things, if sh!t hits the fan in say 3 years, I can probably afford to go Stage3-, but that means I'll have nothing that year going ito my savings and RRSP, and I'll be living pretty poorly for a while. I can do it but common sense keep telling me this ain't right.

The worst part is, looking at the North American auto market for the next 2 model years, there's nothing out there I like and can afford. The Mini Cooper S is the only car right now that I like... I'm just freaking torn on what to do!

Quincy




----- Original Message -----
From: Rohan Singh 
Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Biturbos4] Turbos Reliability & Replacement Cost (was: 2000 S4 Running Hot)

> The discussion about turbo failure always gives me the
> jitters after hearing the mileage at which S4 owners
> experience this! I bought my 2001 S4 with a build date
> of July 2000 in August last year in Toronto with 78K
> kilometres - not miles. The car now has 103K
> kilometres and the turbo's sound fine except for a
> slight "dentist drill" sound when under load between
> 1500 - 2200 rpm - I don't really remember hearing this
> sound for the first few thousand kilometres after
> buying it, but again I am beginning to get to know my
> car a lot more after tuning in to this forum and
> perhaps I wasn't paying attention before. I can't hear
> any sound at very low rpms or above 2200 RPM. I have
> no idea how the car was driven by the first owner but
> the car was in great condition and completely stock
> when I bought it from an Audi dealer with the 2 year
> certified warranty. I have kept the car stock and
> changed the oil (synthetic) every 4000 kilometres
> since 78K. The car runs beautifully and I enjoy
> driving it every single day - never fails to give me a
> rush! I always warm up and cool down. I keep wondering
> at what point I am going to experience turbo failure.
> I do know that if the cost of replacing a turbo is
> around $7K Canadian and this happened after my audi
> assured warranty expired next July, I would go ahead
> and do it. Just the taxes on a new audi A4 (lets say
> 50 grand after really loading it up) come close to 60%
> of that cost! I feel that the styling is timeless and
> that it will go down as an Audi classic. Does anyone
> know about the total cost of upgrading to to a full
> package for the K04's (turbo's, chip, exhaust,
> etc.)and if there are any independent shops in Toronto
> that do this kind of work? If my turbo's go, they had
> better do so before my Audi Assured warranty expires
> next summer! Maybe I should just drive my car hard for
> the next few months hoping that they will die out
> before the warranty expires!
> 
> Rohan
> '01 S4 Manual
> 
> --- Quincy Chiang wrote:
> 
> > Hi Grant, JY and all,
> > 
> > This has been an interesting and informative
> > discussion. From what I've read and heard on these
> > list and AW forums, it seems like luck has more to
> > do with the turbos failing than anything else. 
> > Obviously chipping kills them a lot sooner, and
> > people they have chipped their 2.7t should realize
> > that, but even non-chipped car are not safe from it
> > either. Someone on this list 2 weeks ago (sorry I
> > forgot who) had his turbos bit the dust at the
> > tender age of 52k miles, and he supposedly followed
> > all the usual procedures like proper warmup,
> > cooldown and uses synthetic oil, and his car wasn't
> > chipped.
> > 
> > So we've established how and why the turbos fail (ok
> > maybe not, it still seems more like a black art), my
> > next question is how many owners are actually
> > willing to shell out $7500 Cdn ($6000 USD) to
> > replace those pesky K03s when they meet their maker?
> > 
> > Based on the above and maybe one other recent
> > failure cases (both cars not chipped), lets say the
> > turbos die at somewhere around 55,000 miles
> > (~88,500km), right now I'm more than half way there,
> > and I expect to get there within 3 years. At that
> > mileage, I'd definitely have the timing belt job
> > done while the engine's out, and perhaps replace the
> > clutch as well, so that'd bring the total to nearly
> > $10,000 Cdn ($8000 USD). But here's the kicker, why
> > would you put in K03s and you can get K04s for just
> > a little more money? It makes sense from the
> > reliability perspective, and I'm not one to refuse
> > some extra power. But once you do that, it quickly
> > snowballs into other things to get a decent stage 3-
> > setup, like K03 chip/software, higher fuel pressure
> > regulator, MBC, exhaust and maybe downpipes. Then
> > you'll need some custom tuning with a VAG-COM, which
> > can be fun and/or frustrating at the same time.
> > 
> > The thing is that once the turbos die, you now must
> > replace them just to get the car running, otherwise
> > the car's worthless, can't even sell it. And once
> > you've committed to turbo swap (either straight K03s
> > or a stage 3- setup), you better keep the car for a
> > long long time to recoup the cost.
> > 
> > So now with all that in perspective, how many here
> > thinks they have no problem going down this road in
> > say 2-3 years? Personally I'm having a tough time
> > justifying this potentially hugh expense,
> > especically when I expect to get my own place in a
> > year's time. I'd like to hear your opinions and
> > comments.
> > 
> > Quincy
> > '01.5 S4 - keep or sell?
> > '90 CoupeQ - not going anywhere
> > '05 MCS - sitting at the dealer's lot calling my
> > name...
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Grant 
> > Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:00 am
> > Subject: Re: [Biturbos4] 2000 S4 Running Hot
> > 
> > > This is probably very good info, but nothing is
> > that clear-cut.
> > > ALL turbos are delicate and fail. S4 engine bays
> > run hot. Oil 
> > > cokes 
> > > at turbo temperatures. QED.
> > > 
> > > Its not only the early ones, although I do
> > understand that the oil 
> > > feed/drain plumbing was undersized and thus jy is
> > (to the best of 
> > > my 
> > > limited knowledge, I dont have the statistics - no
> > one does) 
> > > largely 
> > > correct.
> > > 
> > > Grant
> > > On Aug 29, 2005, at 11:41 PM, j y wrote:
> > > 
> > > > R,
> > > >  
> > > > I mentioned in my msg to you last night - ONLY
> > THE EARLY S4s 
> > > (like 
> > > > mine) had the risk of catastrophic turbo
> > failure. It had NOTHING 
> > > to do 
> > > > with the TYPE OF OIL USED - It had to do with a
> > POOR turbo 
> > > design (the 
> > > > oil inlets and ducts were too small thus
> > restricting oil flow 
> > > and its 
> > > > cooling ability) that was corrected in the MY
> > 01.5 (2001.5) S4s. 
> > > So, 
> > > > early S4s that experienced catastrophic turbo
> > failure under, or 
> > > just 
> > > > beyond the warranty period, were given UPGRADED
> > (K03) 
> > > replacements by 
> > > > AOA.
> > > >  
> > > > YOU NEED TO FIND OUT WHEN YOUR S4 WAS BUILT. The
> > build date 
> > > should be 
> > > > on the side of the driver door. The build date
> > on my S4 was 
> > > 11/99. It 
> > > > was sold as a MY 2000 S4. I CLEARLY own an EARLY
> > S4. There is no 
> > > need 
> > > > for you to purchase K04s unless you plan to
> > siginificantly 
> > > modify the 
> > > > power, like I said in my msg to you. I hope this
> > helps clear 
> > > things up 
> > > > for you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > r harout wrote:
> > > >> so let me ask a question (nervoulsy)
> > > >>
> > > >> How likely is it that I was have catastrophic
> > turbo
> > > >> failure if the car has only run with regular
> > oil--but
> > > >> chnaged frequently?
> > > >>
> > > >> Inevitable? What are the signs? I will use
> > Mobil 1
> > > >> moving forward, but the owners before me did
> > not.
> > > >>
> > > >> Maybe I should order the K04s now so I get them
> > in
> > > >> time for failure!
> > > >>
> > > >> --- Grant wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Agreed. Cool is actually not good. The only
> > > >> > regular failures I know
> > > >> > of are turbo-related failures in which the
> > oil
> > > >> > coked. Coking takes
> > > >> > place WAY above 200deg. If you find
> > differently,
> > > >> > please contact the
> > > >> > steel industry - they want your technology
> > badly.
> > > >> > As to "how hot"?
> > > >> > the flash point for mobil1 is >400deg (F).
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Admittedly, the hot underhood temperatures
> > > >> > contribute to this, but I'm
> > > >> > nto sure how much it improves things to
> > extract the
> > > >> > heat to the
> > > >> > radiator, which then blows the heat through
> > the
> > > >> > engine bay, which .....
> > > >> >
> > > >> > So who's had a turbo failure that ran
> > synthetic,
> > > >> > cooled down after hard
> > > >> > runs, and warmed up in the cold?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Anyone?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > And who's had a ring job under ANY
> > circumstances.
> > > >> > Anyone?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Grant
> > > >> > On Aug 29, 2005, at 2:53 PM, costco wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > A lot of research has been performed with
> > regards
> > > >> > to cylinder wear vs.
> > > >> > > coolant temperature in the 70's and 80's
> > amongst
> > > >> > the automakers.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > 192 degrees F is actually optimal in most
> > engines.
> > > >> > More or less is
> > > >> > > application specific. I would never put a
> > 160
> > > >> > degree thermostat into an
> > > >> > > engine that prior had a 180 degree
> > thermostat. 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
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