Autobahn Blue anti-freeze needs a replacement
Robert Myers
robert at s-cars.org
Wed Mar 19 09:14:16 EST 2003
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Joe et al,
Phosphate content in the coolant can lead to corrosion of the aluminum of
the engine. Any decent phosphate free coolant (which includes any number
of inexpensive coolants) will prevent this phosphate caused corrosion. If
changing from one variety of coolant to another a complete flush and refill
is definitely in order to prevent any possible incompatibility between
coolant brands.
$18 per gallon?! Hey, if I could make an extra profit of $10 to $12 per
gallon by simply recommending my own house brand of coolant to my anal
retentive customers don'tcha think I'd be making that recommendation
myself? :-)
The chemistry was covered in another earlier post - repeated here:
_____
It's an equilibrium thing, Scott. At the risk of blowing away those not
familiar with the concepts of equilibrium constants and balancing several
chemical equilibria, Le Chatlier's Principle, and the Law of Mass Action,
here goes:
Aluminum metal spontaneously reacts with water to form Aluminum hydroxide
[Al(OH)3] and hydrogen gas. The only reason that a block of aluminum in
contact with water does not do this to any great extent is that the Al(OH)3
spontaneously decomposes in an equilibrium process to form aluminum oxide
Al2O3. This forms a quite refractory coating of aluminum oxide on the
surface of the metal which prevents contact between the aluminum metal and
the water in much the same way a good coat of paint can protect a piece of
steel from rusting when exposed to moist air.
1. 2 Al + 3 H2O --> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2
2. 2 Al(OH)3 <==> Al2O3 + 3 H2O (with a large Keq)
also
3. Al(OH)3 <==> Al+3 + 3 OH- (with a small Keq thus maintaining a
very low but essentially constant amount of Al+3 ions in solution))
Now enters the phosphate ion from phosphate containing antifreeze.
4. Al+3 + PO4-3 <==> AlPO4 (with a VERY large Keq - aluminum
phosphate is EXTREMELY insoluble in water)
This last process tends to lower the Al+3 concentration and this, in turn,
causing equation 3 above to shift to the right in order to form more Al+3
ions to keep the system in a proper state of equilibrium. This, in effect
then effectively "cleans" the surface of the aluminum block and allows more
of the metal to react with water in an effort to keep everything in balance
as far as the complementary equilibria go. The end result after a long term
is that the metal of the aluminum block gets ":eaten away". This is not a
particularly desirable result for an aluminum engine.
So? We are advised to use phosphate free antifreeze. There are many
phosphate free antifreezes on the market. Any of them will serve the
purpose of preserving your engine from "phosphate damage". Which do I
use? Try "el-cheapo brand". There is absolutely no reason to demand the
expensive stuff from Audi when Prestone or the like will serve the
identical purpose and do it much less expensively. Well, I can think of one
reason. Does the term "anal retentive" ring any bells? :-)
If switching from one brand of antifreeze to another it might not be a bad
idea to do a flush and refill rather than just topping things off with
another brand.
_____
At 05:51 AM 3/19/2003 -0800, Joseph Pizzimenti wrote:
>Bobs,
>Isn't the implication of using phosphate free not
>rusting the aluminum, but the mixing of the 2 causes a
>chemical reaction in which they both start doing funky
>sh*t (technical term) and eat away at the aluminum?
>Well, that's at least what little grasp I have on the
>concept...someone chime in here who knows what they're
>talking about.
>
>Joe
>--- Robert Myers <robert at s-cars.org> wrote:
> > --
> > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> >
> > But my cardiologist and my family physician are also
> > the same 60 miles
> > away. One can combine trips... :-) Hmmmm... That
> > should probably be :-(
> >
> > Then again, I'm not convinced that "the blue stuff"
> > does any better job of
> > protecting my S6's engine that the cheap stuff from
> > Wallie-Mart, only 9
> > miles away, (provided, of course, that the el-cheapo
> > brand is labeled as
> > "phosphate free" and "safe for aluminum engines").
> > The main function of
> > antifreeze is to prevent engine damage caused by
> > expansion of freezing
> > coolant. A secondary function is to prevent
> > rusting. Aluminum doesn't
> > rust because it doesn't contain iron. Are we again
> > on another "oil of
> > snake" thread?
> >
> >
> > At 08:08 AM 3/19/2003 -0500, Bob Rossato wrote:
> >
> > >Yes Bob, you are correct. Like anything else in
> > mail order it doesn't pay
> > >to order just one low-value item since it doesn't
> > make good economic sense
> > >when you add in shipping...well other than to Tom
> > of course. I tend to
> > >order several things at once to spread the shipping
> > expenses around. But
> > >then again, as I recall, isn't your Audi dealer 60
> > miles away;-)? Might not
> > >be a bad deal after all for you, delivered to your
> > door and all.
> > >
> > >Bob
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: quattro-admin at audifans.com
> > [mailto:quattro-admin at audifans.com]On
> > > > Behalf Of Robert Myers
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 7:37 AM
> > > > To: Bob Rossato; Brett Dikeman; Al S;
> > quattro-list
> > > > Subject: RE: Autobahn Blue anti-freeze needs a
> > replacement
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> > > >
> > > > Let's see... $11 per gallon at LA equates,
> > after shipping, to probably
> > > > about $20 per gallon delivered in WV. Um - good
> > economics
> > > > according to Tom
> > > > Saltino who is employed by UPS. :-)
> > > >
> > > > At 07:04 AM 3/19/2003 -0500, Bob Rossato wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > $18/bottle?!? Holy cow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Get it from someone like Scott
> > (www.sjmautotechnik.com). I think I
> > > > > > paid about $7/bottle(not including shipping-
> > I was getting a slew of
> > > > > > other parts at the same time.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brett
> > > > >
> > > > >I've seen prices of anywhere from $7 to $9 per
> > bottle, but that is for a
> > > > >1.5L bottle of the Pentosin. The $18 dealer
> > price is for a
> > > > gallon. So it
> > > > >seems the dealer is just as cheap or cheaper
> > than most other
> > > > sources that I
> > > > >have seen. However, I did find this place
> > during my search
> > > > >(http://www.etyparts.com/lubro%20moly.htm) that
> > has the VW
> > > > Autobahn ZVW 237
> > > > >105 antifreeze for $11/gallon. Don't know how
> > up to date the site is.
> > > > >Anybody dealt with E.T.Y Parts? They're in LA.
> > > > >
> > > > >Bob
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---
> > > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> > (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > >Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 -
> > Release Date: 3/17/2003
> > > >
> > > > ____
> > > >
> > > > I've been wondering... Who would Jesus bomb?
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > > *****
> > > > Robert L. Myers 304-574-2372
> > > > Rt. 4, Box 57, Fayetteville, WV 25840 USA WV
> > tag Q SHIP
> > > > '95 urS6 Cashmere Grey - der Wunderwagen ICQ
> > 22170244
> > > > http://www.cob-net.org/church/pvcob.htm
> > > > *****
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---
> > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> > (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > >Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release
> > Date: 3/17/2003
> >
> > ____
> >
> > I've been wondering... Who would Jesus bomb?
> >
> > Bob
> > *****
> > Robert L. Myers 304-574-2372
> > Rt. 4, Box 57, Fayetteville, WV 25840 USA WV tag
> > Q SHIP
> > '95 urS6 Cashmere Grey - der Wunderwagen ICQ
> > 22170244
> > http://www.cob-net.org/church/pvcob.htm
> > *****
> > --
> >
>
>
>=====
>-------------------------------------
>The following statement is false.
>The preceding statement is true.
>-------------------------------------
>
>__________________________________________________
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>
>---
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____
I've been wondering... Who would Jesus bomb?
Bob
*****
Robert L. Myers 304-574-2372
Rt. 4, Box 57, Fayetteville, WV 25840 USA WV tag Q SHIP
'95 urS6 Cashmere Grey - der Wunderwagen ICQ 22170244
http://www.cob-net.org/church/pvcob.htm
*****
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