2.5l 5cyl via diesel crank and smaller bore

[Todd Phenneger]

I hear what both paries are saying,
  But I have to side wiht Javad here.  The RS2 Manifold may
become very inefficient at that HP level, but I wont believe it
cant be done.  As you said Mihnea, "The problem is that the guy
who's tuned it only tuned it with a WB O2 sensor, no EGT, and
that was his biggest mistake I guess."  What if he had Used an
EGT Gauge, and spend more tiem monitoring the motor.  WIth a
different program who says he wouldnt be able to make that
number reliable.  Or at least modestly reliable.
  I tend to not look at anything in Black and white.  If I was
shooting for 500hp CRANK on a 20vt I would likely look toward a
better EM among other thigns.
  Wow, this is turnign inot a Hell of a Thread.  Who hear
remembers the "TOR*EN" Thread.  Damn that went on forever. :-)
l8r
  Todd "feelign like an oldtimer for remembering that damn
thread"

--- JShadzi at aol.com wrote:
> Mihnea, see inserted..
>
> >Javad,
> >
> >I won't argue with you about Hap's car because I don't know
> exactly what
> >it's running nor who did the chips for it, but granted too,
> 400 wHP or
> >about 500 crank HP on an RS2 exhaust manifold (be it extrude
> honed, ported
> >and polished or whatever) with a "54" cold side trim isn't
> possible. Just
> >use Mike Gough's rule of thumb of 10lb/min per 100 HP and see
> the 54 trim
> >compressor map for yourself, the map ends at about 45 lb/min,
> way off the
> >advised efficiency range, at about 65% efficiency.
>
> You say not possible, well, obviously it is, Hap just did it,
> and he drives the car on the street, and its not unreliable.
> I do know he uses much bigger injectors, and a bigger MAF, but
> the programming is the key to making this work in a Motronic
> equipped car - HAP, ANY INPUT?
>
> Mihnea, you throw out very discrete hp limits all the time, I
> just don't buy that 1) there are any hard HP limits in the
> tuning world, all restrictions cause a %age decrease in
> output, and an increase in the rate of diminishing returns AND
> 2), you just don't have the evidence to back it up...sorry,
> but its moslty hearsay what you propose.
>
> >Re: RS2 EM, go ask MTM, Dahlback, Lehmann or whomever you
> consider
> >knowledgeable in this domain and they will all tell you the
> same thing:
> >more than 440 HP on an RS2 EM could be possible but in the
> long run it
> >leads to self-destruction of the engine. I know of a guy in
> Switzerland
> >who's had his S2 with standalone management tuned on a dyno
> at 480 crank HP
> >with an RS2 EM and a huge turbo, guess what happened 2 days
> after that and
> >running only 455 HP? He just melted an exhaust valve, and he
> was running
> >HUGE injectors: 530cc at 4 Bar fuel pressure and had a Bosch
> Motorsport
> >fuel pump. The most likely issue? Too much heat in the
> combustion chambers
> >from a too restrictive EM. The problem is that the guy who's
> tuned it only
> >tuned it with a WB O2 sensor, no EGT, and that was his
> biggest mistake I guess.
>
> I just don't buy it, there is no such thing as a HP limit for
> an exhaust manifold, there is a range in which it becomes
> excessively inefficient and restrictive, but there is not a
> discrete limit.  A burnt exh valve could be caused by a dozen
> things, a restrictive exh. manifold toward the latter IMO/E.
>
> >The Motronic is very tuneable, but in terms of fuel supply,
> the ECU has
> >more to say than the one who's programming it and really,
> without real
> >"tricking" of the ECU (different methods are possible) it
> can't provide
> >with 14ms injector opening time at 7000 RPM, it will only
> "give" 11 or so
> >ms, I've "been there calculated that" based on some
> documentation I've
> >already spoken to you about.
>
> Not sure about the specifics, per se, but with the right
> injector 11MS will be enough for 1k hp..but 11MS is like
> 60-70% duty cycle at 7krpm, seems very low for a maxxed out
> injector driver.
>
> >Now, that said, I haven't yet had a chance to try and tune a
> Motronic for
> >500 HP myself, but this should happen in the following weeks
> and I'll keep
> >you posted about that with hard data of course. This will be
> on 2 track
> >S2s, with tubular headers, S1 style IMs, twin fuel pumps,
> huge enough
> >injectors, ported and polised as well as flowbenched heads
> and Garrett
> >turbos that make 600 HP on a few 2.0 liter rally cross cars
> at 2 Bar
> >relative boost. So the turbos and the ancillaries shouldn't
> be an issue
> >here, but the Motronic itself might be.
>
> I'll be interested to see the results, the hard results.
>
> >Let's please not turn this into a "tuner's war" :-)
>
> No, not at all, my only disagreement is when people start
> throwing around arbitrary HP limits, we've had this
> conversation before, you told me that the 3B is only good to
> 340 crank HP with a distributor, well I nailed almost 400
> crank with my distributor 10v, so I'm not buying the HP limits
> people throw around, its just not feasible.  Motronic has its
> place, and so does 034EFI, no disagreements there.
>
> Javad


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