2.5l 5cyl via diesel crank and smaller bore

Fri Sep 19 11:21:54 EDT 2003

Todd, maybe what you/Javad say will work in the US, maybe it won't, I for
one would never attempt it, it's as easy as that, period.

One thing I've noticed yesterday while discussing about this thread with
another fellow lister (hi Bob!) is that there is possibly a radically
different tuning philosophy between Javad and myself and other European tuners:

The facts are: MTM, Dahlback and Lehmann (the most knowledgeable/reputable
tuners in Europe for those who don't know) usually tune cars for German
freaks who like to give their cars WOT for hours on the Autobahn. This
means going through Germany from south to north at 150-170 mph or more,
always accelerating hard in 6th and so on. I also always do my tuning in
5th and 6th gears (depending on which one is the highest), and I very
carefully check EGTs/AFRs during extended WOT/full boost runs in top gear
and modify fuel settings/timing advance in order to make sure nothing will
ever blow. The treatment could bad for the engine itself but if it does it
without seeing EGTs climbing over 820 degree after the turbine during 20
minutes WOT, then it will most likely NEVER break, or at least not due to a
mixture/advance issue.

The other fact is that, as Bob also noticed it, there's no Autobahn in the
US, and except at the racetrack, there are virtually no places where one
can give WOT for more than a few minutes without fearing to get arrested.

Thus, due to this different strategy/philosophy, I agree then, maybe 500
crank HP are possible with an RS2 manifold, but not the way MTM, Dahlbäck,
Lehmann, myself and lots of other German tuners consider it reliable in the
long term, simply because we have totally different benchmarks for long
term reliability.
Of course nothing will go wrong for years if such a car is tuned only for
maximum acceleration, not for long term top-gear WOT operation.

My swiss friend's case is a particular one and chances are that no one will
really ever know what went wrong, but all I can say is that I didn't tune
that car and I wish I'll never have to either, except when he puts the darn
Motronic back in.

The thread is over for me, I've tried to go through it as diplomatically as
possible, sorry if I somehow ended up sounding pompous (sorry Hap) or
pissed off, this wasn't my intention.

Mihnea

At 00:52 19/09/2003 -0700, Todd Phenneger wrote:
>I hear what both paries are saying,
>   But I have to side wiht Javad here.  The RS2 Manifold may
>become very inefficient at that HP level, but I wont believe it
>cant be done.  As you said Mihnea, "The problem is that the guy
>who's tuned it only tuned it with a WB O2 sensor, no EGT, and
>that was his biggest mistake I guess."  What if he had Used an
>EGT Gauge, and spend more tiem monitoring the motor.  WIth a
>different program who says he wouldnt be able to make that
>number reliable.  Or at least modestly reliable.
>   I tend to not look at anything in Black and white.  If I was
>shooting for 500hp CRANK on a 20vt I would likely look toward a
>better EM among other thigns.
>   Wow, this is turnign inot a Hell of a Thread.  Who hear
>remembers the "TOR*EN" Thread.  Damn that went on forever. :-)
>l8r
>   Todd "feelign like an oldtimer for remembering that damn
>thread"
>
>--- JShadzi at aol.com wrote:
> > Mihnea, see inserted..
> >
> > >Javad,
> > >
> > >I won't argue with you about Hap's car because I don't know
> > exactly what
> > >it's running nor who did the chips for it, but granted too,
> > 400 wHP or
> > >about 500 crank HP on an RS2 exhaust manifold (be it extrude
> > honed, ported
> > >and polished or whatever) with a "54" cold side trim isn't
> > possible. Just
> > >use Mike Gough's rule of thumb of 10lb/min per 100 HP and see
> > the 54 trim
> > >compressor map for yourself, the map ends at about 45 lb/min,
> > way off the
> > >advised efficiency range, at about 65% efficiency.
> >
> > You say not possible, well, obviously it is, Hap just did it,
> > and he drives the car on the street, and its not unreliable.
> > I do know he uses much bigger injectors, and a bigger MAF, but
> > the programming is the key to making this work in a Motronic
> > equipped car - HAP, ANY INPUT?
> >
> > Mihnea, you throw out very discrete hp limits all the time, I
> > just don't buy that 1) there are any hard HP limits in the
> > tuning world, all restrictions cause a %age decrease in
> > output, and an increase in the rate of diminishing returns AND
> > 2), you just don't have the evidence to back it up...sorry,
> > but its moslty hearsay what you propose.
> >
> > >Re: RS2 EM, go ask MTM, Dahlback, Lehmann or whomever you
> > consider
> > >knowledgeable in this domain and they will all tell you the
> > same thing:
> > >more than 440 HP on an RS2 EM could be possible but in the
> > long run it
> > >leads to self-destruction of the engine. I know of a guy in
> > Switzerland
> > >who's had his S2 with standalone management tuned on a dyno
> > at 480 crank HP
> > >with an RS2 EM and a huge turbo, guess what happened 2 days
> > after that and
> > >running only 455 HP? He just melted an exhaust valve, and he
> > was running
> > >HUGE injectors: 530cc at 4 Bar fuel pressure and had a Bosch
> > Motorsport
> > >fuel pump. The most likely issue? Too much heat in the
> > combustion chambers
> > >from a too restrictive EM. The problem is that the guy who's
> > tuned it only
> > >tuned it with a WB O2 sensor, no EGT, and that was his
> > biggest mistake I guess.
> >
> > I just don't buy it, there is no such thing as a HP limit for
> > an exhaust manifold, there is a range in which it becomes
> > excessively inefficient and restrictive, but there is not a
> > discrete limit.  A burnt exh valve could be caused by a dozen
> > things, a restrictive exh. manifold toward the latter IMO/E.
> >
> > >The Motronic is very tuneable, but in terms of fuel supply,
> > the ECU has
> > >more to say than the one who's programming it and really,
> > without real
> > >"tricking" of the ECU (different methods are possible) it
> > can't provide
> > >with 14ms injector opening time at 7000 RPM, it will only
> > "give" 11 or so
> > >ms, I've "been there calculated that" based on some
> > documentation I've
> > >already spoken to you about.
> >
> > Not sure about the specifics, per se, but with the right
> > injector 11MS will be enough for 1k hp..but 11MS is like
> > 60-70% duty cycle at 7krpm, seems very low for a maxxed out
> > injector driver.
> >
> > >Now, that said, I haven't yet had a chance to try and tune a
> > Motronic for
> > >500 HP myself, but this should happen in the following weeks
> > and I'll keep
> > >you posted about that with hard data of course. This will be
> > on 2 track
> > >S2s, with tubular headers, S1 style IMs, twin fuel pumps,
> > huge enough
> > >injectors, ported and polised as well as flowbenched heads
> > and Garrett
> > >turbos that make 600 HP on a few 2.0 liter rally cross cars
> > at 2 Bar
> > >relative boost. So the turbos and the ancillaries shouldn't
> > be an issue
> > >here, but the Motronic itself might be.
> >
> > I'll be interested to see the results, the hard results.
> >
> > >Let's please not turn this into a "tuner's war" :-)
> >
> > No, not at all, my only disagreement is when people start
> > throwing around arbitrary HP limits, we've had this
> > conversation before, you told me that the 3B is only good to
> > 340 crank HP with a distributor, well I nailed almost 400
> > crank with my distributor 10v, so I'm not buying the HP limits
> > people throw around, its just not feasible.  Motronic has its
> > place, and so does 034EFI, no disagreements there.
> >
> > Javad
>
>
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