2.5l 5cyl via diesel crank and smaller bore

[Todd Phenneger]

Mihnea,
  See my previous post.  It seems that we came to the same
conclusion in a roudn about sort of way.  I fully Agree.
Different Philosophies and uses.
l8r
  Todd

--- Mihnea Cotet <mik at info.fundp.ac.be> wrote:
> Todd, maybe what you/Javad say will work in the US, maybe it
> won't, I for
> one would never attempt it, it's as easy as that, period.
>
> One thing I've noticed yesterday while discussing about this
> thread with
> another fellow lister (hi Bob!) is that there is possibly a
> radically
> different tuning philosophy between Javad and myself and other
> European tuners:
>
> The facts are: MTM, Dahlback and Lehmann (the most
> knowledgeable/reputable
> tuners in Europe for those who don't know) usually tune cars
> for German
> freaks who like to give their cars WOT for hours on the
> Autobahn. This
> means going through Germany from south to north at 150-170 mph
> or more,
> always accelerating hard in 6th and so on. I also always do my
> tuning in
> 5th and 6th gears (depending on which one is the highest), and
> I very
> carefully check EGTs/AFRs during extended WOT/full boost runs
> in top gear
> and modify fuel settings/timing advance in order to make sure
> nothing will
> ever blow. The treatment could bad for the engine itself but
> if it does it
> without seeing EGTs climbing over 820 degree after the turbine
> during 20
> minutes WOT, then it will most likely NEVER break, or at least
> not due to a
> mixture/advance issue.
>
> The other fact is that, as Bob also noticed it, there's no
> Autobahn in the
> US, and except at the racetrack, there are virtually no places
> where one
> can give WOT for more than a few minutes without fearing to
> get arrested.
>
> Thus, due to this different strategy/philosophy, I agree then,
> maybe 500
> crank HP are possible with an RS2 manifold, but not the way
> MTM, Dahlbäck,
> Lehmann, myself and lots of other German tuners consider it
> reliable in the
> long term, simply because we have totally different benchmarks
> for long
> term reliability.
> Of course nothing will go wrong for years if such a car is
> tuned only for
> maximum acceleration, not for long term top-gear WOT
> operation.
>
> My swiss friend's case is a particular one and chances are
> that no one will
> really ever know what went wrong, but all I can say is that I
> didn't tune
> that car and I wish I'll never have to either, except when he
> puts the darn
> Motronic back in.
>
> The thread is over for me, I've tried to go through it as
> diplomatically as
> possible, sorry if I somehow ended up sounding pompous (sorry
> Hap) or
> pissed off, this wasn't my intention.
>
>
> Mihnea
>
> At 00:52 19/09/2003 -0700, Todd Phenneger wrote:
> >I hear what both paries are saying,
> >   But I have to side wiht Javad here.  The RS2 Manifold may
> >become very inefficient at that HP level, but I wont believe
> it
> >cant be done.  As you said Mihnea, "The problem is that the
> guy
> >who's tuned it only tuned it with a WB O2 sensor, no EGT, and
> >that was his biggest mistake I guess."  What if he had Used
> an
> >EGT Gauge, and spend more tiem monitoring the motor.  WIth a
> >different program who says he wouldnt be able to make that
> >number reliable.  Or at least modestly reliable.
> >   I tend to not look at anything in Black and white.  If I
> was
> >shooting for 500hp CRANK on a 20vt I would likely look toward
> a
> >better EM among other thigns.
> >   Wow, this is turnign inot a Hell of a Thread.  Who hear
> >remembers the "TOR*EN" Thread.  Damn that went on forever.
> :-)
> >l8r
> >   Todd "feelign like an oldtimer for remembering that damn
> >thread"
> >
> >--- JShadzi at aol.com wrote:
> > > Mihnea, see inserted..
> > >
> > > >Javad,
> > > >
> > > >I won't argue with you about Hap's car because I don't
> know
> > > exactly what
> > > >it's running nor who did the chips for it, but granted
> too,
> > > 400 wHP or
> > > >about 500 crank HP on an RS2 exhaust manifold (be it
> extrude
> > > honed, ported
> > > >and polished or whatever) with a "54" cold side trim
> isn't
> > > possible. Just
> > > >use Mike Gough's rule of thumb of 10lb/min per 100 HP and
> see
> > > the 54 trim
> > > >compressor map for yourself, the map ends at about 45
> lb/min,
> > > way off the
> > > >advised efficiency range, at about 65% efficiency.
> > >
> > > You say not possible, well, obviously it is, Hap just did
> it,
> > > and he drives the car on the street, and its not
> unreliable.
> > > I do know he uses much bigger injectors, and a bigger MAF,
> but
> > > the programming is the key to making this work in a
> Motronic
> > > equipped car - HAP, ANY INPUT?
> > >
> > > Mihnea, you throw out very discrete hp limits all the
> time, I
> > > just don't buy that 1) there are any hard HP limits in the
> > > tuning world, all restrictions cause a %age decrease in
> > > output, and an increase in the rate of diminishing returns
> AND
> > > 2), you just don't have the evidence to back it
> up...sorry,
> > > but its moslty hearsay what you propose.
> > >
> > > >Re: RS2 EM, go ask MTM, Dahlback, Lehmann or whomever you
> > > consider
> > > >knowledgeable in this domain and they will all tell you
> the
> > > same thing:
> > > >more than 440 HP on an RS2 EM could be possible but in
> the
> > > long run it
> > > >leads to self-destruction of the engine. I know of a guy
> in
> > > Switzerland
> > > >who's had his S2 with standalone management tuned on a
> dyno
> > > at 480 crank HP
> > > >with an RS2 EM and a huge turbo, guess what happened 2
> days
> > > after that and
> > > >running only 455 HP? He just melted an exhaust valve, and
> he
> > > was running
> > > >HUGE injectors: 530cc at 4 Bar fuel pressure and had a
> Bosch
> > > Motorsport
> > > >fuel pump. The most likely issue? Too much heat in the
> > > combustion chambers
> > > >from a too restrictive EM. The problem is that the guy
> who's
> > > tuned it only
> > > >tuned it with a WB O2 sensor, no EGT, and that was his
> > > biggest mistake I guess.
> > >
> > > I just don't buy it, there is no such thing as a HP limit
> for
> > > an exhaust manifold, there is a range in which it becomes
> > > excessively inefficient and restrictive, but there is not
> a
> > > discrete limit.  A burnt exh valve could be caused by a
> dozen
> > > things, a restrictive exh. manifold toward the latter
> IMO/E.
> > >
> > > >The Motronic is very tuneable, but in terms of fuel
> supply,
> > > the ECU has
> > > >more to say than the one who's programming it and really,
> > > without real
> > > >"tricking" of the ECU (different methods are possible) it
> > > can't provide
> > > >with 14ms injector opening time at 7000 RPM, it will only
> > > "give" 11 or so
> > > >ms, I've "been there calculated that" based on some
> > > documentation I've
> > > >already spoken to you about.
> > >
> > > Not sure about the specifics, per se, but with the right
> > > injector 11MS will be enough for 1k hp..but 11MS is like
> > > 60-70% duty cycle at 7krpm, seems very low for a maxxed
> out
> > > injector driver.
> > >
> > > >Now, that said, I haven't yet had a chance to try and
> tune a
> > > Motronic for
> > > >500 HP myself, but this should happen in the following
> weeks
> > > and I'll keep
> > > >you posted about that with hard data of course. This will
> be
> > > on 2 track
> > > >S2s, with tubular headers, S1 style IMs, twin fuel pumps,
> > > huge enough
> > > >injectors, ported and polised as well as flowbenched
> heads
> > > and Garrett
> > > >turbos that make 600 HP on a few 2.0 liter rally cross
> cars
> > > at 2 Bar
> > > >relative boost. So the turbos and the ancillaries
> shouldn't
> > > be an issue
> > > >here, but the Motronic itself might be.
> > >
> > > I'll be interested to see the results, the hard results.
> > >
> > > >Let's please not turn this into a "tuner's war" :-)
> > >
> > > No, not at all, my only disagreement is when people start
> > > throwing around arbitrary HP limits, we've had this
> > > conversation before, you told me that the 3B is only good
> to
> > > 340 crank HP with a distributor, well I nailed almost 400
> > > crank with my distributor 10v, so I'm not buying the HP
> limits
> > > people throw around, its just not feasible.  Motronic has
> its
> > > place, and so does 034EFI, no disagreements there.
> > >
> > > Javad
> >
> >
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