NAC..'00 VW Passat 4Motion...$7200 in repairs!!!

[Tyson Varosyan]

I did not say that the removal of the cat is legal. Removal of any emission
control device is illegal. A shop caught doing so to obviously street driven
cars, will get shut down, but I have never heard of anyone individual
getting smacked with the outrageous fine (I think it's like $10,000 around
my parts) for doing so. Do so at your own risk...

HC is measured on emission tests and I have personally seen a significant
number of early to late 90's cars (40-150k miles) test better without cats.
Yes, the tests were ran correctly. I do not know whom said anything about
crank valves - but it was not me. I am concerned about the environment as
much as the next guy - even more so. What I am trying to convey is that,
over the course of their lifetime, these devices do more harm than good.

Brett, you covered yourself well, "the vehicles were not properly
maintained, the cats dead, the car was tested improperly, or you're making
it up." Well, I am not making it up, the cars were tested properly to the
"T", the cats were not "dead" and that leaves us with "properly maintained."
How many miles do you have on your cat? Do you run to the dealer for a new
cat and O2 sensors every 3-5 years? If not, you are not maintaining ether
and likely putting more "crap" in the air than you would without them.

Look around - cars that are 5-10 years old and have 80-200k mi on them are
the majority of what is being driven on the road. Do you know of anyone that
gets O2 sensors and cats replaced before they start to cause major problems?
There are a few people out there, but the majority will not until they ether
fail an emissions test or notice something seriously wrong happening. Fact
is, a properly working O2 sensor and cat(s) may reduce your car's emissions
by (and I am being generous here) 8%. An improperly working O2 sensor and
cat can increase your emission by 100% easily; and most states make people
test their cars only every other year. Many times the emissions of the car
can be greatly elevated due to a clogged cat and a messed up O2 and it will
still pass the test and continue driving while putting out enough emissions
for a car and a half. Bottom line, overall, the things do more harm than
good.

Brett, I am talking about Japan, you are talking about California. What
Japanese car makers produce for our market has nothing to do with the point
I was trying to make. Japan with it's much higher emissions standards does
not put this "crap" in the cars for their own roads. Compare this: Japan
producing 1991-1999 Mitsubishi 3000GT/GTO made the cars IDENTICAL for the
USDM and the JDM markets. Same car, same motor, same everything. (In Japan
they have a few more options of transmissions and drive types, but that is
beyond the point.) The only difference is, where as the USDM cars come with
4 O2 sensors and 3 cats, the JDM cars have no O2's and one cat, which at
least by weight, feels to have half as much "crap" in it. Explain to me why.
All over the world, Europe, Japan, Australia, where people on average care
more about the environment, these things are being kept out of cars. Why
Brett? Is it because more people research the "snake oil" being offered to
us in these devices and see them for what they are?

It was funny that you brought up the radiator emission control devices. We
will see how they work - at least they do not have the potential to do
harm... But I remember reading an article a few years back about some Auto
company (was it Volvo or Saab?) that put some converter on the radiator of
their cars in 2000. It split Oxygen molecules into Ozone molecules. Everyone
knows that Ozone is good, right? They marketed the snot out of these cars as
being so cool because they make ozone... Well, about a year later I saw
petitions floating around online and even an NPR story on the subject. Turns
out Ozone, when produced in the lower atmosphere does not raise up to the
upper atmosphere where it is helpful and Ozone in the lower atmosphere has
adverse effects on the environment. The car maker ended up discontinuing
their Ozone radiators.

Bottom line, this post started out as my advice to a member faced with
having to replace his cats at a cost of $4200. Personally, I do not think
that the investment of $4200 in "crap" that will fail again in 4-5 years is
worth it. If you have money to burn and are so concerned about being legal,
maybe you can pick up his bill :)

Tyson Varosyan
Technical Manager, Uptime Technical Solutions LLC.
tyson at up-times.com
www.up-times.com
206-715-TECH (8324)

UpTime/OnTime/AnyTime

-----Original Message-----
From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of Brett Dikeman
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 12:07 AM
To: tyson at up-times.com
Cc: Quattro at Audifans. Com (E-mail)
Subject: Re: NAC..'00 VW Passat 4Motion...$7200 in repairs!!!



On Jun 10, 2005, at 3:58 PM, Tyson Varosyan wrote:

> Catalytic converters are a bunch of crap anyway! They do not work!
> Do what many people I know do on all their cars. Take a hole saw
> with a long
> extension, take out your cat, and drill the thing out. Or get a
> "Test pipe"
> if there is one made for your car. Ether way, nuke the thing.

DO NOT do this under any circumstances.  Removing emissions controls
is a federal (and state) offense; just ask the chaps at a shop in
southern New England that was just completely shut down by federal
officials for removing catalytic converters and/or gutting them.  The
fine is several thousand dollars PER VEHICLE.

Despite what Mr. Varosyan says, catalytic converters are there for a
reason, and it is extremely irresponsible to remove them (same goes
for venting your crankcase to the atmosphere; it's a HUGE source of
HC emissions; there's a reason that stuff has been getting put back
in the intake for forty years).

You want to remove cats and/or vent your crankcase to the
atmosphere?  You can, as far as I'm concerned, when you're not #$@!
ing up everyone else's air.  Until then, given we're all breathing
the crap your car does or does not put out- play by the rules.

> Every car that I have seen without it's cat's shows better numbers
> on the
> emission tests than it did with them.

Then the vehicles were not properly maintained, the cats dead, the
car was tested improperly, or you're making it up.  There is no
conspiracy.

> Those things are bogus, much like O2
> sensors, and only work under certain conditions for certain
> problems in a
> lab.

No.  Actually, they really do work.  The ECU varies the mixture
slightly between lean and rich, causing the cat to load alternately
on CO, NOx or HCs...and catalyze them when mixture swings in the
opposite direction.

> Japan, the most environmentally conscious country
> in the world, does not use cats or O2 sensors for just that reason.

I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong on this.  Japan introduced
very restrictive (at the time) emissions requirements in 1978, which
spurred the development of the three-way catalytic converter.  The
standards were revised in 2000, which is one of the reasons Honda and
Toyota have been cranking out (insert adjectives such as "ultra") Low
Emission Vehicles since then (that and the California emissions
regulations, as well as "fleet" quotas on emissions; every Prius
means another Highlander for Toyota, basically).  They all use
catalytic converters and O2 sensors.  Volvo and several other
companies now also use radiators with a low-temperature catalyst that
works on air flowing through the radiator, making them actually
negative emission vehicles.

> Ohh and the partial reason that some cats cost so much is because the
> leading tips of the honeycombs are now made of Platinum.

The honeycombs are made of ceramic, and each of the stages has a
platinum coating throughout.  They also use rhodium and palladium
(for first and second stages, respectively).

Brett
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
http://www.users.cloud9.net/~brett/
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