200TQA suspension question

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> Real world experience, sure, lowered cars suck
> on the street. Period. 
> I've been driving an excessively lowered
> vehicle on the street for the 
> past two years. Not my doing, the PO installed
> the springs because they 
> made the car look "cool". Great on the track
> and autocross course, but 
> horrible in comparison to the stock suspended
> identical model when 
> assaulting the mountain roads. 

thankfully ontario lacks mountain roads. 
although some of our highways are pretty
treacherous.

> Nothing takes the fun out of a corner 
> like encountering an unexpected hump that puts
> the car on the bump 
> stops and upsets the chassis to the point of
> requiring very very quick 
> steering input to get it off the shoulder and
> facing somewhere besides the ditch. 

true.

> Said car is currently not being
> driven and won't see much 
> street time until I bump the ride height back
> up and/or find some way 
> to increase the suspension travel. Having to
> approach the entrance to 
> the grocery store at an angle and at a snails
> pace and still dragging 
> isn't any fun. The creaks and groans from the
> chassis as it flexes like 
> mad over uneven pavement aren't too cool
> either.

i've always been a fan of cars that need to
approach entrances as you describe.  seriously. 
it always reminds me of some low-slung animal
getting ready to pounce.  as for the creaks and
groans, hopefully i can do something about that. 
maybe some added structural rigidity, maybe not.
 
> Here are some things to consider on the type44
> (5000/100/200). Take a 
> look at the amount of front overhang. By
> default it has a very poor 
> approach angle, meaning that even in stock form
> there is pucker factor 
> with pulling into driveways and such. Any
> abrupt change in angle of the 
> road brings bits of the front of the car in
> contact with the road 
> surface. Lower it a bunch and you might as well
> cut off the bottom half 
> of the bumper cover and start carrying around a
> spare alternator for 
> when it gets busted off it's mounting. 

i'll keep that in mind.  force5auto has some
alternators in stock, i'm sure. :)

> H&R employs double and maybe 
> even triple digit numbers of engineers to
> design their springs. Do you 
> really think that you are smarter than they
> are? 

dear me, most definitely not.  i also realize
that they design springs for all sorts of
different applications.  

H&R likely has made race springs for audi back
when they used to campaign the 200/100/V8.  do i
want to go that low?  yes.  would i drive it that
low?  no.  i do have some semblance of a brain in
my head.  i do realize that there are limitations
to what can be done.  i'm trying to find them
out.

when they wound the springs that i have now, i'm
sure that they were designed to be used on the
bumpy backroads of ireland, the long flats in
montana, the broken streets of downtown toronto,
and everywhere in between.  i'm elminating the
need for the extra clearance because i'll be
staying away from all of the abovementioned
roads.  what i'm trying to figure out is how much
these cars can be lowered without causing
significant stress on the suspension bits.  

for example, i'm looking for the opinions of
people that have, say, dropped their car 3
inches, and had the seals in their rear diff go.

> Have you considered 
> the consequences to various suspension
> parameters of said lowered car. 
> Adverse affects to things such as bump steer,
> camber angle (non 
> adjustable in this case), roll couple, camber
> gain, bump travel, shock 
> rates, etc. 

absolutely, yes.  i still am.  that's why i'm
asking the questions.  

it's also why i haven't lopped off a coil from
each spring yet.  i want to make sure that BEFORE
i make any changes to things, i have a moderate
familiarity with the vehicles' underpinnings.

> How about the fact that when you
> install really short 
> springs they float around in the seats when the
> suspension is unloaded.

in all applications that i've cut a coil or two,
the spring is still under enough tension from the
upper and lower spring seats that it will not
roll around.  

in the applications that i have run springs with
2 or more coils cut off, the springs will move
around somewhat.  however, they will never come
out of their perch.  they will always
automatically fall back into place.
 
> You can only run really short springs if you
> shorten the struts/shocks as well. 

i've considered it for some of my other cars, tho
i've yet to come up with a method that i'm happy
with.  i certainly wouldn't want to try it out on
something i have so little experience with.

> How do you plan on getting a jack
> under the car?

i have a jack that is made for excessively
lowered vehicles.  barring that, i drive onto a
2x4 or something that will allow me to use a
regular jack.
 
> Seriously, I detect a very ricey feel here.

i can assure you that there is nothing further
from the truth.  a lowered car does not denote a
riced out car.

> Those really low cars you 
> see in the magazines...no one really drives
> them. 

i drive lowered vehicles everyday, and i have
done so for the past 10 years.  it's often the
first modification that i do to a car, because i
feel it is the most important visual and
performance mod.  we all have our tastes.

> They exist purely as 
> a public relations exercise for whatever
> company paid to have their 
> products installed or as a testament to the
> owner's ego. 

are you talking about cars on airbags and
hydraulics?  are you also talking about massively
body-kitted cars?  i'm not talking about either
of those.  

everyone has an ego, not just us crazy cats with
the slammed rides, yo. :)

> Real street machines that are worth driving 
> aren't that low. 

like ferraris, porsches, lambos?  those things
are extremely low.  the carbon fibre
underpinnings on the carerra GT get smoked all
the time when people drive the car on anything
but the flatest track.

> Take a look at the 
> Subaru Impreza STI, Mitsubishi EVO, or for an
> apples to apples 
> comparison the S8. They aren't that low and
> every inch of the 
> suspension is optimized for the stock ride
> height. Would you argue that 
> these cars aren't cool or aren't real
> performance cars because they 
> aren't low enough?

i'm not entirely sure where you're going with
your questions.  i note some kind of unjustified
fear of the unknown.  let me assure you again
that i don't dig rice.

the cars are extremely cool, and they are
performance oriented.  i've always preferred the
look of ANY car when it has been lowered, tho. 
and there really is no arguing the fact that
anytime you see any vehicle being raced in any
series, its suspension has been modified
accordingly.

road course: on the ground.

rally course: pretty high up.
 
> And finally, if I recall correctly, this car is
> fairly new to you. It 
> may even have come to you in good condition. It
> won't stay that way.

now, now.  assumptions are one of those things
that you should stay away from.  
 
> It's too old and has more than a couple of
> design shortcomings. Save 
> the money you want to spend on wheels and
> springs and such for a 
> replacement hydraulic pump, accumulator, window
> regulator, fuel pump, 
> intake hose, exhaust manifold, engine mount,
> transmission mount, 
> driveshaft support bearing, etc.

well, the hydraulic pump was first rebuilt, then
a used one was sourced.  so that should be good
for another 23 minutes, i'm sure.  the extra
intake boot is currently in the trunk.  the
exhaust manifold has been welded, and my friend
is looking to design me a new one should this one
fail.  the engine and tranny mounts are all
replaced.  in fact, the head has been fully
rebuilt, so all sorts of nifty little bits have
been replaced.

right now, my main concern is the gastank and
lines.  i've replaced a couple on my old mk1
jettas and golfs, and have not had fun with it. 
on a quattro?  i'm positively terrified.

however, any car will give you problems.  it's
just a matter of time.  am i going to forget
about modifying the suspension because of it? 
heck no!  the springs and struts will go on as
they are right now.  while i save up some dough
and find some time, i'll try and find out as much
as i can about the suspension and it's
limitations.
 
> Food for thought. You will probably ignore me
> and the others who 
> respond to your questions in a similar manner
> but in return we reserve 
> the right to snicker when bad things happen and
> or you come to your 
> senses. And because I'm coming off a little
> harsh please believe me 
> when I say I mean well because I do. I'm just
> trying to save you a lot 
> of suffering. Having said that, some things you
> only learn by personal experience and that's 
> ok.

yes, you are coming off a little harsh, but
that's fine.  i'll give you the benefit of the
doubt because you don't know me.  i came out of
nowhere asking questions that make me look like i
want to make my car less than it is.  

i have loved this car ever since i bought it 2
and a half years ago.  until recently, i've not
been able to even look at it.  now i intend to
keep it for some time, and intend to learn as
much as i can from it and this list.

> If you want to go any shorter than H&R then as
> far as I know you'll 
> have to have custom springs made. Of the
> readily available springs for 
> the type 44 the H&R are the lowest. and even
> then you should consider 
> the shorted struts/shocks that Bilstein makes.

when finances permit, i've got my eye on the koni
yellows.  i don't know how the bilsteins are for
the audi, but i do know that they've got
shortcomings in any of my vdub applications that
make me a diehard koni yellow enthusiast.

thanks for you input, roy!  and please, keep it
coming.  i'm going to need it.

jason
tmb

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