quattro Digest, Vol 64, Issue 8
Moemmo [Gene Temkin]
moemmo at cox.net
Tue Feb 3 11:37:33 PST 2009
I allways wanted to know: why not disconnect the electronic
overdrive............should be all that difficult
Just wanted to know..
gt
----- Original Message -----
From: <quattro-request at audifans.com>
To: <quattro at audifans.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:02 AM
Subject: quattro Digest, Vol 64, Issue 8
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. RE: Audi in London (Ed Kellock)
> 2. Re: Audi in London (Mark J. Besso)
> 3. RE: Audi in London (Bares, Vittorio)
> 4. RE: Audi in London (Ed Kellock)
> 5. RE: Audi in London (Geraint Lloyd)
> 6. RE: Audi in London (Bares, Vittorio)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:24:17 -0700
> From: "Ed Kellock" <ekellock at gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Audi in London
> To: "'Mark J. Besso'" <mbspeed at maxboostracing.com>, "'Mark R'"
> <speedracer.mark at gmail.com>
> Cc: "'Bares, Vittorio'" <Vittorio.Bares at nuance.com>,
> quattro at audifans.com
> Message-ID: <4828CA6D89014424A3BEC3539005C42D at Boonieslap>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Part of what you say is incorrect. Torsen is never controlled or "cut
> out"
> by electronics. The manual locking of the rear diff on certain era of
> vehicles is defeated at about 20mph, but Torsen is always active.
>
> Torsen isn't everyone's ideal either. There's been great debate about
> it's
> ultimate worth. I believe most everyone is in agreement up to about
> 9/10's
> and then it's function is considered not beneficial by some.
>
> The lock-up cut out relative to speed is only applicable to rear diffs
> that
> can be locked manually by an electronic switch.
>
> Early cars, up to 88 had fully manual lock control. Torsen was introduced
> in 89 with the electronic rear diff lock switch.
>
> Ed
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
>> [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf Of Mark J. Besso
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:17 AM
>> To: Mark R
>> Cc: Bares, Vittorio; quattro at audifans.com
>> Subject: Re: Audi in London
>>
>>
>> I beg to differ. The "real" quattro's have individually lockable
>> differentials for the center and rear. They may seem primitive, but
>> they sure whoop Torsen's.
>>
>> Not to mention, the Torsen-equipped cars have electronics
>> that cut out
>> the lock-up feature over a certain speed. Just when they're
>> starting to
>> get fun, the lock-up is disabled. Boo!
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark R wrote:
>> >> Especially if you have something like 19 inch summer
>> tires.....! But
>> >> the TT doesn't have 'real' quattro anyways, right? ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Dan D
>> >> '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6
>> >> Central NJ USA
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Dan hit the nail on the head! I just got back from
>> instructing at yet
>> > another winter driving school (NAAC) and good tires are of
>> course the
>> > number one thing to have for the conditions. But "real"
>> Quattro (with
>> > a torsen center diff) is head and shoulders above anything else,
>> > ESPECIALLY Haldex based systems.
>> >
>> > Subaru and BMW get is mostly right, but there's something
>> about real
>> > Quattro that is absoluitely tops. And the control/fun of
>> the Torsen
>> > systems go from understeer to subtle oversteer at just the right
>> > moment (when the fronts hook up).... gotta love it!
>> >
>> > Mark Rosenkrantz (who would take Haldex over FWD or RWD,
>> but any other
>> > AWD system over Haldex).
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > quattro mailing list
>> > quattro at audifans.com
>> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>> > ---
>> > Watch this space for ads :)
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> quattro mailing list
>> quattro at audifans.com http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>> ---
>> Watch this space for ads :)
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1932 - Release
>> Date: 02/03/09 07:57:00
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:40:01 -0500
> From: "Mark J. Besso" <mbspeed at maxboostracing.com>
> Subject: Re: Audi in London
> To: Ed Kellock <ekellock at gmail.com>
> Cc: "'Bares, Vittorio'" <Vittorio.Bares at nuance.com>,
> quattro at audifans.com, 'Mark R' <speedracer.mark at gmail.com>
> Message-ID: <49888F81.3040803 at maxboostracing.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Ed, that is exactly what I said. The lock-up feature (not the Torsen's
> functionality) is disabled above a certain speed.
>
> I've had the simultaneous joy/curse of owning all the various quattro
> systems at one time or another. As the cars got nicer, their AWD
> systems got progressively less functional IMO. My 4KQ was the slowest,
> worst handling, least sophisticated of them all......yet it had THE BEST
> system of putting power to the ground. (I use the word "power" with
> tongue firmly in-cheek) I've owned a couple of Torsen-equipped,
> 7A-powered Audis as well. The Torsen's constant drive to all (4) wheels
> is quite nice--unless you're in a low-speed maneuver that causes binding
> and that annoying 'hop' these cars have. I currently have a
> Haldex-equipped Audi and I'm still learning what it can/cannot do in
> limited traction situations. So far I'm not too
> impressed.......although I love the car more than any of my previous
> Audis.
>
> ~Mark
> -'84 4KQ (gone, but not forgotten)
> -'86 5KTQA (miss the power, not the car)
> -'91 90Q 20V "Sport" (traded for a '62 Caddy!)
> -'91 Coupe Quattro (needs a V8, but otherwise fine)
> -'01 TT Quattro (wish it had manually lockable diffs...)
> The fleet: http://5000tq.com/audifanspics/My-Vehicles-Past-and-Present
>
>
>
>
> Ed Kellock wrote:
>> Part of what you say is incorrect. Torsen is never controlled or "cut
>> out"
>> by electronics. The manual locking of the rear diff on certain era of
>> vehicles is defeated at about 20mph, but Torsen is always active.
>>
>> Torsen isn't everyone's ideal either. There's been great debate about
>> it's
>> ultimate worth. I believe most everyone is in agreement up to about
>> 9/10's
>> and then it's function is considered not beneficial by some.
>>
>> The lock-up cut out relative to speed is only applicable to rear diffs
>> that
>> can be locked manually by an electronic switch.
>>
>> Early cars, up to 88 had fully manual lock control. Torsen was
>> introduced
>> in 89 with the electronic rear diff lock switch.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
>>> [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf Of Mark J. Besso
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:17 AM
>>> To: Mark R
>>> Cc: Bares, Vittorio; quattro at audifans.com
>>> Subject: Re: Audi in London
>>>
>>>
>>> I beg to differ. The "real" quattro's have individually lockable
>>> differentials for the center and rear. They may seem primitive, but
>>> they sure whoop Torsen's.
>>>
>>> Not to mention, the Torsen-equipped cars have electronics
>>> that cut out
>>> the lock-up feature over a certain speed. Just when they're
>>> starting to
>>> get fun, the lock-up is disabled. Boo!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark R wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Especially if you have something like 19 inch summer
>>>>>
>>> tires.....! But
>>>
>>>>> the TT doesn't have 'real' quattro anyways, right? ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan D
>>>>> '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6
>>>>> Central NJ USA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Dan hit the nail on the head! I just got back from
>>>>
>>> instructing at yet
>>>
>>>> another winter driving school (NAAC) and good tires are of
>>>>
>>> course the
>>>
>>>> number one thing to have for the conditions. But "real"
>>>>
>>> Quattro (with
>>>
>>>> a torsen center diff) is head and shoulders above anything else,
>>>> ESPECIALLY Haldex based systems.
>>>>
>>>> Subaru and BMW get is mostly right, but there's something
>>>>
>>> about real
>>>
>>>> Quattro that is absoluitely tops. And the control/fun of
>>>>
>>> the Torsen
>>>
>>>> systems go from understeer to subtle oversteer at just the right
>>>> moment (when the fronts hook up).... gotta love it!
>>>>
>>>> Mark Rosenkrantz (who would take Haldex over FWD or RWD,
>>>>
>>> but any other
>>>
>>>> AWD system over Haldex).
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:51:19 -0500
> From: "Bares, Vittorio" <Vittorio.Bares at nuance.com>
> Subject: RE: Audi in London
> To: "Ed Kellock" <ekellock at gmail.com>, "Mark J. Besso"
> <mbspeed at maxboostracing.com>, "Mark R" <speedracer.mark at gmail.com>
> Cc: quattro at audifans.com
> Message-ID:
> <624BC75DA4460545849070E141EBCD6B03F411AE at BN-EXCH01.nuance.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> And the speed sensor on the lock is easily defeatable (snip :))
>
> Vittorio -
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Kellock [mailto:ekellock at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 1:24 PM
> To: 'Mark J. Besso'; 'Mark R'
> Cc: Bares, Vittorio; quattro at audifans.com
> Subject: RE: Audi in London
>
> Part of what you say is incorrect. Torsen is never controlled or "cut
> out"
> by electronics. The manual locking of the rear diff on certain era of
> vehicles is defeated at about 20mph, but Torsen is always active.
>
> Torsen isn't everyone's ideal either. There's been great debate about
> it's
> ultimate worth. I believe most everyone is in agreement up to about
> 9/10's
> and then it's function is considered not beneficial by some.
>
> The lock-up cut out relative to speed is only applicable to rear diffs
> that
> can be locked manually by an electronic switch.
>
> Early cars, up to 88 had fully manual lock control. Torsen was
> introduced
> in 89 with the electronic rear diff lock switch.
>
> Ed
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
>> [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf Of Mark J. Besso
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:17 AM
>> To: Mark R
>> Cc: Bares, Vittorio; quattro at audifans.com
>> Subject: Re: Audi in London
>>
>>
>> I beg to differ. The "real" quattro's have individually lockable
>> differentials for the center and rear. They may seem primitive, but
>> they sure whoop Torsen's.
>>
>> Not to mention, the Torsen-equipped cars have electronics
>> that cut out
>> the lock-up feature over a certain speed. Just when they're
>> starting to
>> get fun, the lock-up is disabled. Boo!
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark R wrote:
>> >> Especially if you have something like 19 inch summer
>> tires.....! But
>> >> the TT doesn't have 'real' quattro anyways, right? ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Dan D
>> >> '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6
>> >> Central NJ USA
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Dan hit the nail on the head! I just got back from
>> instructing at yet
>> > another winter driving school (NAAC) and good tires are of
>> course the
>> > number one thing to have for the conditions. But "real"
>> Quattro (with
>> > a torsen center diff) is head and shoulders above anything else,
>> > ESPECIALLY Haldex based systems.
>> >
>> > Subaru and BMW get is mostly right, but there's something
>> about real
>> > Quattro that is absoluitely tops. And the control/fun of
>> the Torsen
>> > systems go from understeer to subtle oversteer at just the right
>> > moment (when the fronts hook up).... gotta love it!
>> >
>> > Mark Rosenkrantz (who would take Haldex over FWD or RWD,
>> but any other
>> > AWD system over Haldex).
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > quattro mailing list
>> > quattro at audifans.com
>> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>> > ---
>> > Watch this space for ads :)
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> quattro mailing list
>> quattro at audifans.com http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>> ---
>> Watch this space for ads :)
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1932 - Release
>> Date: 02/03/09 07:57:00
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:59:54 -0700
> From: "Ed Kellock" <ekellock at gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Audi in London
> To: <quattro at audifans.com>
> Message-ID: <F04EF69780454A7FB815549AC2254005 at Boonieslap>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Yes it is. I removed the blue wire from the connector block but
> discovered
> the following spring that this also defeats the cruise control. I'm glad
> I
> didn't snip it.
>
> Ed
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bares, Vittorio [mailto:Vittorio.Bares at nuance.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:51 AM
>> To: Ed Kellock; Mark J. Besso; Mark R
>> Cc: quattro at audifans.com
>> Subject: RE: Audi in London
>>
>>
>> And the speed sensor on the lock is easily defeatable (snip :))
>>
>> Vittorio -
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ed Kellock [mailto:ekellock at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 1:24 PM
>> To: 'Mark J. Besso'; 'Mark R'
>> Cc: Bares, Vittorio; quattro at audifans.com
>> Subject: RE: Audi in London
>>
>> Part of what you say is incorrect. Torsen is never
>> controlled or "cut out" by electronics. The manual locking
>> of the rear diff on certain era of vehicles is defeated at
>> about 20mph, but Torsen is always active.
>>
>> Torsen isn't everyone's ideal either. There's been great
>> debate about it's ultimate worth. I believe most everyone is
>> in agreement up to about 9/10's and then it's function is
>> considered not beneficial by some.
>>
>> The lock-up cut out relative to speed is only applicable to
>> rear diffs that can be locked manually by an electronic switch.
>>
>> Early cars, up to 88 had fully manual lock control. Torsen
>> was introduced in 89 with the electronic rear diff lock switch.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
>> > [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf Of Mark J. Besso
>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:17 AM
>> > To: Mark R
>> > Cc: Bares, Vittorio; quattro at audifans.com
>> > Subject: Re: Audi in London
>> >
>> >
>> > I beg to differ. The "real" quattro's have individually lockable
>> > differentials for the center and rear. They may seem
>> primitive, but
>> > they sure whoop Torsen's.
>> >
>> > Not to mention, the Torsen-equipped cars have electronics
>> > that cut out
>> > the lock-up feature over a certain speed. Just when they're
>> > starting to
>> > get fun, the lock-up is disabled. Boo!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Mark R wrote:
>> > >> Especially if you have something like 19 inch summer
>> > tires.....! But
>> > >> the TT doesn't have 'real' quattro anyways, right? ;-)
>> > >>
>> > >> Dan D
>> > >> '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6
>> > >> Central NJ USA
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Dan hit the nail on the head! I just got back from
>> > instructing at yet
>> > > another winter driving school (NAAC) and good tires are of
>> > course the
>> > > number one thing to have for the conditions. But "real"
>> > Quattro (with
>> > > a torsen center diff) is head and shoulders above anything else,
>> > > ESPECIALLY Haldex based systems.
>> > >
>> > > Subaru and BMW get is mostly right, but there's something
>> > about real
>> > > Quattro that is absoluitely tops. And the control/fun of
>> > the Torsen
>> > > systems go from understeer to subtle oversteer at just the right
>> > > moment (when the fronts hook up).... gotta love it!
>> > >
>> > > Mark Rosenkrantz (who would take Haldex over FWD or RWD,
>> > but any other
>> > > AWD system over Haldex).
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > quattro mailing list
>> > > quattro at audifans.com
>> > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>> > > ---
>> > > Watch this space for ads :)
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > quattro mailing list
>> > quattro at audifans.com
>> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>> > ---
>> > Watch this space for ads :)
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1932 - Release
>> > Date: 02/03/09 07:57:00
>> >
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1932 - Release
>> Date: 02/03/09 07:57:00
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:02:25 -0500
> From: "Geraint Lloyd" <geraintlloyd_qc at yahoo.ca>
> Subject: RE: Audi in London
> To: "'Ed Kellock'" <ekellock at gmail.com>, "'Mark J. Besso'"
> <mbspeed at maxboostracing.com>, "'Mark R'" <speedracer.mark at gmail.com>
> Cc: "'Bares, Vittorio'" <Vittorio.Bares at nuance.com>,
> quattro at audifans.com
> Message-ID: <001201c98631$f441c400$dcc54c00$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Ed Kellock said:
> "Part of what you say is incorrect. Torsen is never controlled or "cut
> out"
> by electronics. The manual locking of the rear diff on certain era of
> vehicles is defeated at about 20mph.......
> The lock-up cut out relative to speed is only applicable to rear diffs
> that
> can be locked manually by an electronic switch."
>
> Geraint qualifies:
> "Unless the car has had the blue and white(?) wire snipped....."
> Actually I carried out this mod on the '89 200TQA after having difficulty
> getting out of Montreal snowbanks.
> I am assuming that the original design was based on the retail value of a
> new Audi 200, whereby the driver might spend a little more time ensuring
> that there was not a big mound of hardened white stuff in the way that
> might
> damage his/her investment (or at least the front end of his investment)
> during snow bank extraction........ My impression was that with the diff
> unlocking at 20mph whilst "exiting" a parking space using a well used Audi
> that is probably worth less than a medium range fur coat, it sufficed that
> one wheel exceeded 20mph rather than the whole car and then the diff
> unlocked - which really didn't help at all. So "SNIP", or rather "insert
> relay" to give it "Mr and Mrs" modes.
>
>
> Tihol said:
> "Anyone selling cheap Quaiffe or Peloquin for VW 02J?"
>
> Geraint quipped "nope but i just bought an expensive Quaife for an 02A
> when
> i should have ordered one for an 02J.
> I know some Honda boys who buy those cheap Torsen peloquin and Quaife
> knock
> offs from ebay. Strip them and rebuild using a Quaife replacement washer
> and
> bolt kit for way less than the price of a Peloquin. They seem relatively
> reliable. So far"
>
> Geraint
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 14:02:51 -0500
> From: "Bares, Vittorio" <Vittorio.Bares at nuance.com>
> Subject: RE: Audi in London
> To: "Ed Kellock" <ekellock at gmail.com>, <quattro at audifans.com>
> Message-ID:
> <624BC75DA4460545849070E141EBCD6B03F411E9 at BN-EXCH01.nuance.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Lol! I'm glad I never use cruise and my cruise doesn't work ...that
> makes sense though...
>
> Vittorio -
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com]
> On Behalf Of Ed Kellock
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:00 PM
> To: quattro at audifans.com
> Subject: RE: Audi in London
>
> Yes it is. I removed the blue wire from the connector block but
> discovered
> the following spring that this also defeats the cruise control. I'm
> glad I
> didn't snip it.
>
> Ed
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bares, Vittorio [mailto:Vittorio.Bares at nuance.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:51 AM
>> To: Ed Kellock; Mark J. Besso; Mark R
>> Cc: quattro at audifans.com
>> Subject: RE: Audi in London
>>
>>
>> And the speed sensor on the lock is easily defeatable (snip :))
>>
>> Vittorio -
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ed Kellock [mailto:ekellock at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 1:24 PM
>> To: 'Mark J. Besso'; 'Mark R'
>> Cc: Bares, Vittorio; quattro at audifans.com
>> Subject: RE: Audi in London
>>
>> Part of what you say is incorrect. Torsen is never
>> controlled or "cut out" by electronics. The manual locking
>> of the rear diff on certain era of vehicles is defeated at
>> about 20mph, but Torsen is always active.
>>
>> Torsen isn't everyone's ideal either. There's been great
>> debate about it's ultimate worth. I believe most everyone is
>> in agreement up to about 9/10's and then it's function is
>> considered not beneficial by some.
>>
>> The lock-up cut out relative to speed is only applicable to
>> rear diffs that can be locked manually by an electronic switch.
>>
>> Early cars, up to 88 had fully manual lock control. Torsen
>> was introduced in 89 with the electronic rear diff lock switch.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
>> > [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf Of Mark J. Besso
>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:17 AM
>> > To: Mark R
>> > Cc: Bares, Vittorio; quattro at audifans.com
>> > Subject: Re: Audi in London
>> >
>> >
>> > I beg to differ. The "real" quattro's have individually lockable
>> > differentials for the center and rear. They may seem
>> primitive, but
>> > they sure whoop Torsen's.
>> >
>> > Not to mention, the Torsen-equipped cars have electronics
>> > that cut out
>> > the lock-up feature over a certain speed. Just when they're
>> > starting to
>> > get fun, the lock-up is disabled. Boo!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Mark R wrote:
>> > >> Especially if you have something like 19 inch summer
>> > tires.....! But
>> > >> the TT doesn't have 'real' quattro anyways, right? ;-)
>> > >>
>> > >> Dan D
>> > >> '04 A4 1.8Tq MT-6
>> > >> Central NJ USA
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Dan hit the nail on the head! I just got back from
>> > instructing at yet
>> > > another winter driving school (NAAC) and good tires are of
>> > course the
>> > > number one thing to have for the conditions. But "real"
>> > Quattro (with
>> > > a torsen center diff) is head and shoulders above anything else,
>> > > ESPECIALLY Haldex based systems.
>> > >
>> > > Subaru and BMW get is mostly right, but there's something
>> > about real
>> > > Quattro that is absoluitely tops. And the control/fun of
>> > the Torsen
>> > > systems go from understeer to subtle oversteer at just the right
>> > > moment (when the fronts hook up).... gotta love it!
>> > >
>> > > Mark Rosenkrantz (who would take Haldex over FWD or RWD,
>> > but any other
>> > > AWD system over Haldex).
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > quattro mailing list
>> > > quattro at audifans.com
>> > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>> > > ---
>> > > Watch this space for ads :)
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > quattro mailing list
>> > quattro at audifans.com
>> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>> > ---
>> > Watch this space for ads :)
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1932 - Release
>> > Date: 02/03/09 07:57:00
>> >
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.17/1932 - Release
>> Date: 02/03/09 07:57:00
>>
>
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> End of quattro Digest, Vol 64, Issue 8
> **************************************
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