[s-cars] Current Confirmation list for ECU software GP and I.A. VS MTM

Sun Jun 16 11:49:38 EDT 2002

Kirby!
For sure what MTM(and those other who includes the  3 barg sensor) is doing
when using the  3 barg sensor is taking  advantage of building higher torque
in the mid  range(and of course twisting the  K24 turbo with more  boost), but
limiting the  horsepower at top end. The maps are quite different for the two
pressure-sensors. Typically boost pressure with the 3 barg version is 1,5 to
1,6barg from 3000 rpms to 5000rpms, then it is reduced to give  the  same HP
as the  2,5 barg version.

The  difference in Europe when buying a kit with 3 barg sensor is 440Nm torq
compared to 410Nm with the 2,5 barg sensor. This is probably why some people
find  the sudden "powershot" with these kits annoying, some  other like  this
feeling  a lot. And as  we all know what we feel in our seats are torque, not
HP.

My advice would be go for the 3 barg version if  you dont  have  a  wife that
complaint about the sudden powershot and you have a slight possibility of
building more  power at a later stage. Go for the  2,5 barg version if the
goal is a  smooth delivery of torque. Both version have  equally low end
torque for  drivability.

Best reg Joern

>===== Original Message From kirby.a.smith at verizon.net =====
>On my S6, the Stage 1 chip (which I now believe is Lehmann) boosts to
>1.3 kg/cm^2, or close to 2.3 bar absolute.  This may be compared to 1.1
>for the stock setup.  2.3/2.5 < 4.85/5.00.  I doubt I have a problem
>with the non-linear region.  YPMV
>
>Clearly the Stage 1+ you are familiar with generates a higher pressure
>and thus needs the 3-bar sensor.  My impression from the previous group
>buy was that the Stage 1+ of that buy differed only in the addition of
>the 3=bar sensor, and that other than adapting to the new sensor
>scaling, the maps were the same.
>
>kirby
>
>Robert Pastore wrote:
>>
>> Kirby:
>>
>> I have to strongly disagree.
>>
>> The pressure transducers measure absolute pressure and out a linear voltage
>> from 0-5vdc.  So the stock 2.5 bar sensor can only read 1.5 bar of boost or
>> 21.75 PSI.  The reality of the sensor is that it peaks around 4.85 vdc, and
>> if to the maximum, loses it linearity.  The ECU then uses this voltage
>> signal to determine boost level. Once the signal loses linearity, you are
>> asking for trouble because you lose control of boost.  BTW, the TAP 3.2 bar
>> pressure transducer is nothing more than a bosch 2 bar transducer, with 2
>> resistors added to try to emulate the output of the 3 bar sensor.  I've
>> mapped the output of many different sensors, and can assure you , the TAP
>> sensor is not linear and doesn't work.
>>
>> > All of the Hot k24 chipsets need the 3 bar pressure transducer.  I posted
>> a stage 1+ boost map that I produced in excel directly from the chip'hex
>> dump to the old s-list yahoo files.
>>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/s-car-list/files/stage%201%20plus%20%20boost%2
>> 0map.xls  This chipset has a target boost level at full throttle  above the
>> limit of the 2.5 bar sensor from idle all the way up to 5750 rpm.
>>
>> >Playing with different chipset, modifying code, cataloging "what is what"
>> has become a hobby/obsession.   I can tell you without reservation that if
>> you run a chipset that uses the 2.5 bar sensor (either with a stock k24 or
a
>> bigger turbo) you are foregoing a huge torque/HP advantage that the MTM 1+
(
>> or whatever Ned is calling his 3 bar sensor version) gives.  If you'd like,
>> I can map and post the 2.5 bar chipset map from hoppen or Tap for
>> comparison.
>>
>> regards,
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kirby Smith [mailto:kirby.a.smith at verizon.net]
>> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 4:56 PM
>> To: Peter Anderson
>> Cc: James Murray LMC; 'TM'; chris chambers; 'Scar'
>> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Current Confirmation list for ECU software GP and
>> I.A. VS MTM
>>
>> When the last group buy of Hoppen software was in process, we did it
>> through Anderson Bros.  Stage 1 (which I got) differed from Stage 1+
>> only in one respect -- the 1+ included a new 3-bar transducer.  However,
>> this transducer has no added benefit to Stage 1 performance.  It only
>> matters when one upgrades later to a higher pressure turbo and perhaps
>> suitable software to go with it.  Thus, I suspect here that unless one
>> is planning on staged upgrades and wants the 3-bar transducer for future
>> upgrades, then there is no point to buying it now.  Although I don't run
>> his software, I think Ned is correct in his approach here.  You may as
>> well pay later for the sensor when you upgrade further, as pay now,
>> unless you suspect that all units will be sold by then.
>>
>> kirby
>>
>> Peter Anderson wrote:
>> >
>> > I share James' point of view here.  I have been on this list for well
over
>> > two years and while I have heard of the "Lehman" software, I have never
>> > heard any mention of where / how to obtain it.  As for "binary"
>> performance,
>> > my car (stock motor & software) feels that way now.  If the MTM 1+ feels
>> > similar -just faster, then I'll take it.  If your suggesting that IA will
>> > improve low end torque I'm skeptical but willing to hear more from those
>> > with first hand experience.  Is that what you are saying Chris? If Ned is
>> > not willing to part with his 3-bar sensors except for those who want full
>> > bore turbo mods then he has effectively separated himself from my money
>> > unless he can explain how I get the same performance w/o it.  Let's see
>> some
>> > dyno graphs.  He should note that I live at sea level and there is plenty
>> of
>> > dense air to pump into the combustion chambers - no need to worry about
>> > altitude compensation her in Portland Maine.  I am presently not
>> interested
>> > in changing my turbo as I do not want the torque curve I saw in the dyno
>> > graph from the nationals (Mance's car).  I have no plans to take my car
to
>> > the track.  I just want more usable street / highway power and no, I'm
not
>> > talking about stoplight drag races.  I would like to hear more from those
>> > that have driven both.
>> >
>> > Peter Anderson
>> > 93 S4 6-speed
>> >
>> > On 06/15/02 11:36 AM, "James Murray (LMC)" <James.Murray at ericsson.ca>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Does anyone know what software IA use? Is it there own or do they use
>> > > Lehmann. Who sells Lehmann S/W?
>> > >
>> > > I guess I would want to know why IA doesn't include the 3-Bar sensor
>> while
>> > > MTM at least does if they are equal power outputs. At least with the
MTM
>> you
>> > > have the option for more powerful S/W upgrade later on since they
>> provide
>> > > the 3-Bar sensor...
>> > >
>> > > Cheers, /James.
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From:    TM [SMTP:t44tq at mindspring.com]
>> > > Sent:    June 15, 2002 11:20 AM
>> > > To:    'chris chambers'; 'Scar'
>> > > Subject:    RE: [s-cars] Current Confirmation list for ECU
>> > > software GP and I.A. VS MTM
>> > >
>> > > Chris,
>> > > Why are you all so set on getting the MTM software? My drive of
>> > > MTM software was not all that impressive. Igor Kessel has described
>> > > it as "binary," a characterization supported by several others.
>> > >
>> > > IMHO, Lehmann and IA software has a much more progressive power
>> > > curve
>> > > that simply feels much better and generally is more refined with
>> > > equal
>> > > power outputs.
>> > >
>> > > Taka
>> > >
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