[s-cars] Current Confirmation list for ECU software GP and I.A. VS MTM

Sun Jun 16 10:04:31 EDT 2002

Thanks everyone for the clarification.  Since my wife objects to my
accelerating with Stage 1, I guess I should have gone for Stage 1+
because, unlike my pressure sensor, her complaints _are_ in the
non-linear region  :)

kirby

joeamund wrote:
>
> Kirby!
> For sure what MTM(and those other who includes the  3 barg sensor) is doing
> when using the  3 barg sensor is taking  advantage of building higher torque
> in the mid  range(and of course twisting the  K24 turbo with more  boost), but
> limiting the  horsepower at top end. The maps are quite different for the two
> pressure-sensors. Typically boost pressure with the 3 barg version is 1,5 to
> 1,6barg from 3000 rpms to 5000rpms, then it is reduced to give  the  same HP
> as the  2,5 barg version.
>
> The  difference in Europe when buying a kit with 3 barg sensor is 440Nm torq
> compared to 410Nm with the 2,5 barg sensor. This is probably why some people
> find  the sudden "powershot" with these kits annoying, some  other like  this
> feeling  a lot. And as  we all know what we feel in our seats are torque, not
> HP.
>
> My advice would be go for the 3 barg version if  you dont  have  a  wife that
> complaint about the sudden powershot and you have a slight possibility of
> building more  power at a later stage. Go for the  2,5 barg version if the
> goal is a  smooth delivery of torque. Both version have  equally low end
> torque for  drivability.
>
> Best reg Joern
>
> >===== Original Message From kirby.a.smith at verizon.net =====
> >On my S6, the Stage 1 chip (which I now believe is Lehmann) boosts to
> >1.3 kg/cm^2, or close to 2.3 bar absolute.  This may be compared to 1.1
> >for the stock setup.  2.3/2.5 < 4.85/5.00.  I doubt I have a problem
> >with the non-linear region.  YPMV
> >
> >Clearly the Stage 1+ you are familiar with generates a higher pressure
> >and thus needs the 3-bar sensor.  My impression from the previous group
> >buy was that the Stage 1+ of that buy differed only in the addition of
> >the 3=bar sensor, and that other than adapting to the new sensor
> >scaling, the maps were the same.
> >
> >kirby
> >
> >Robert Pastore wrote:
> >>
> >> Kirby:
> >>
> >> I have to strongly disagree.
> >>
> >> The pressure transducers measure absolute pressure and out a linear voltage
> >> from 0-5vdc.  So the stock 2.5 bar sensor can only read 1.5 bar of boost or
> >> 21.75 PSI.  The reality of the sensor is that it peaks around 4.85 vdc, and
> >> if to the maximum, loses it linearity.  The ECU then uses this voltage
> >> signal to determine boost level. Once the signal loses linearity, you are
> >> asking for trouble because you lose control of boost.  BTW, the TAP 3.2 bar
> >> pressure transducer is nothing more than a bosch 2 bar transducer, with 2
> >> resistors added to try to emulate the output of the 3 bar sensor.  I've
> >> mapped the output of many different sensors, and can assure you , the TAP
> >> sensor is not linear and doesn't work.
> >>
> >> > All of the Hot k24 chipsets need the 3 bar pressure transducer.  I posted
> >> a stage 1+ boost map that I produced in excel directly from the chip'hex
> >> dump to the old s-list yahoo files.
> >>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/s-car-list/files/stage%201%20plus%20%20boost%2
> >> 0map.xls  This chipset has a target boost level at full throttle  above the
> >> limit of the 2.5 bar sensor from idle all the way up to 5750 rpm.
> >>
> >> >Playing with different chipset, modifying code, cataloging "what is what"
> >> has become a hobby/obsession.   I can tell you without reservation that if
> >> you run a chipset that uses the 2.5 bar sensor (either with a stock k24 or
> a
> >> bigger turbo) you are foregoing a huge torque/HP advantage that the MTM 1+
> (
> >> or whatever Ned is calling his 3 bar sensor version) gives.  If you'd like,
> >> I can map and post the 2.5 bar chipset map from hoppen or Tap for
> >> comparison.
> >>
> >> regards,
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Kirby Smith [mailto:kirby.a.smith at verizon.net]
> >> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 4:56 PM
> >> To: Peter Anderson
> >> Cc: James Murray LMC; 'TM'; chris chambers; 'Scar'
> >> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Current Confirmation list for ECU software GP and
> >> I.A. VS MTM
> >>
> >> When the last group buy of Hoppen software was in process, we did it
> >> through Anderson Bros.  Stage 1 (which I got) differed from Stage 1+
> >> only in one respect -- the 1+ included a new 3-bar transducer.  However,
> >> this transducer has no added benefit to Stage 1 performance.  It only
> >> matters when one upgrades later to a higher pressure turbo and perhaps
> >> suitable software to go with it.  Thus, I suspect here that unless one
> >> is planning on staged upgrades and wants the 3-bar transducer for future
> >> upgrades, then there is no point to buying it now.  Although I don't run
> >> his software, I think Ned is correct in his approach here.  You may as
> >> well pay later for the sensor when you upgrade further, as pay now,
> >> unless you suspect that all units will be sold by then.
> >>
> >> kirby
> >>
> >> Peter Anderson wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I share James' point of view here.  I have been on this list for well
> over
> >> > two years and while I have heard of the "Lehman" software, I have never
> >> > heard any mention of where / how to obtain it.  As for "binary"
> >> performance,
> >> > my car (stock motor & software) feels that way now.  If the MTM 1+ feels
> >> > similar -just faster, then I'll take it.  If your suggesting that IA will
> >> > improve low end torque I'm skeptical but willing to hear more from those
> >> > with first hand experience.  Is that what you are saying Chris? If Ned is
> >> > not willing to part with his 3-bar sensors except for those who want full
> >> > bore turbo mods then he has effectively separated himself from my money
> >> > unless he can explain how I get the same performance w/o it.  Let's see
> >> some
> >> > dyno graphs.  He should note that I live at sea level and there is plenty
> >> of
> >> > dense air to pump into the combustion chambers - no need to worry about
> >> > altitude compensation her in Portland Maine.  I am presently not
> >> interested
> >> > in changing my turbo as I do not want the torque curve I saw in the dyno
> >> > graph from the nationals (Mance's car).  I have no plans to take my car
> to
> >> > the track.  I just want more usable street / highway power and no, I'm
> not
> >> > talking about stoplight drag races.  I would like to hear more from those
> >> > that have driven both.
> >> >
> >> > Peter Anderson
> >> > 93 S4 6-speed
> >> >
> >> > On 06/15/02 11:36 AM, "James Murray (LMC)" <James.Murray at ericsson.ca>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Does anyone know what software IA use? Is it there own or do they use
> >> > > Lehmann. Who sells Lehmann S/W?
> >> > >
> >> > > I guess I would want to know why IA doesn't include the 3-Bar sensor
> >> while
> >> > > MTM at least does if they are equal power outputs. At least with the
> MTM
> >> you
> >> > > have the option for more powerful S/W upgrade later on since they
> >> provide
> >> > > the 3-Bar sensor...
> >> > >
> >> > > Cheers, /James.
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From:    TM [SMTP:t44tq at mindspring.com]
> >> > > Sent:    June 15, 2002 11:20 AM
> >> > > To:    'chris chambers'; 'Scar'
> >> > > Subject:    RE: [s-cars] Current Confirmation list for ECU
> >> > > software GP and I.A. VS MTM
> >> > >
> >> > > Chris,
> >> > > Why are you all so set on getting the MTM software? My drive of
> >> > > MTM software was not all that impressive. Igor Kessel has described
> >> > > it as "binary," a characterization supported by several others.
> >> > >
> >> > > IMHO, Lehmann and IA software has a much more progressive power
> >> > > curve
> >> > > that simply feels much better and generally is more refined with
> >> > > equal
> >> > > power outputs.
> >> > >
> >> > > Taka
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
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