[s-cars] [Fwd: FPRs ... The rs2 conversion ECUs and SW ....]
Darin Nederhoff
editor at s-cars.org
Mon May 13 10:35:56 EDT 2002
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 12:06:26 -0000
From: "tommy200rs" <tommy.arnberg at nokia.com>
To: s-car-list-owner at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: FPRs ... The rs2 conversion ECUs and SW ....
In-Reply-To: <3CA9EB91.5DA9A08F at spotgraphicsinc.com>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
Hi !
According to tests with equal HW in same setup except
THE ECU, I can speculate following:
AAN 551B ECU (3bar) with SAME German made sharp
RS2 EPROM sw runs too rich compared to run in
ADU 551B ECU (3bar)
*** ---> ECU=B4s are not the same ***
I=B4ll try to get some information
how to compensate the AAN ECU HW
difference(s)in SW when native based RS2 551B or 551C SW
is run in AAN ECU.
All help and comments wellcome .
Rgs,
Tommy
PS. A200 conversion testing completed and NO SW or HW problems :)
=3D it resulted very smooth, but barbarian T5 Coyote Symphony
(well minor change need is to get the mixture slighly leaner
between 2400 - 3200 RPM during light drivable load conditions:)
--- In s-car-list at y..., jimk at s... wrote:
> Thanks Charlie - I think I am pretty much on the same page with my
> understanding (just phrased it a bit different, sorry. The RS2
turbo sucks
> more air, which is measured by the MAF, which then demands more fuel
to go
> with the greater airflow). Per Hoppen, my chips are a Lehman 3.0
version for
> use with stock injectors, MAF, FPR but RS2 turbo and EM. The chips
would
> obviously need to be changed if anything else did, I understand all
that.
> In the end though, with an RS2 turbo and EM, you're (I'm) probably
best off
> with the RS2 MAF, injectors, and FPR as long as the chipset takes
all that
> into account. My biggest (intended) question was why you can't just
use the
> AAN FPR instead of the RS2 unit but thinking about it more I guess
that 5%
> pressure difference would obviously have you running 5% rich.
> Anway, thanks again. Sorry about my less than articulateness.
> Jim K.
>
> Charlie Smith wrote:
>
> > Earlier, jimklein94610 wrote:
> > >
> > > Guys,
> > > I was searching the archives for info on adjustable FPR's etc.
and
> > > came across the posts from below. I had always believed that
people
> > > go to the adjustable FPR due to the fuel pressure needing to be
> > > greater than stock in order to match the fuel requirement with
the
> > > RS2 turbo (assuming of course the RS2 MAF and injectors).
> >
> > <<tilt light comes on>> Wait a minute.
> >
> > You have overlooked a basic understanding on how these systems
work.
> > And then, you've proceded to make it worse from there.
> >
> > The system that keeps the mixture correct, that makes the engine
run
> > right, and deliver good fuel mileage consists of these parts: MAF,
> > Injectors, fuel pressure regulator (FPR), and ECU chips that are
> > programmed to match.
> >
> > A particular type/size of MAF will produce a signal that changes
as
> > the amount of air going through it changes. A different
type/size
> > of MAF will produce a different signal for the same amount of
air
> > passing through.
> >
> > At some fixed fuel pressure, a particular type/size of injector
will
> > inject a specific amount of fuel when pulsed with an electric
signal
> > of some certain duration. A different type/size of injector
will
> > inject a different amount of fuel when pulsed for the same
duration
> > at the same fuel pressure. When operated at some different
fixed fuel
> > pressure the first injector will inject a different amount of
fuel
> > when pulsed at the same duration.
> >
> > The ECU chips containing the fuel control maps are programmed
> > to provide exactly the right amount of fuel based on the signal
> > from the MAF (and things like rpm, temperature, and boost).
> > The ECU provides exactly the right amount of fuel by controlling
> > the electric pulse duration to the injectors. It can keep the
> > amount of fuel exactly right because the programming that
controls
> > injector pulse duration is done knowing exactly how much fuel
will
> > be injected for a pulse of that duration.
> >
> > If you read the above closely enough, you'll understand that the
> > system only works right when the ECU chips are matched to a
specific
> > type/size of MAF, a specific type/size of injector, and a FPR that
> > produces some specific fixed pressure.
> >
> > If you change just one of those components out of the blue, it's
> > not going to work right. Yeah, there are ancillary systems like
> > the O2 sensor mixture correction system that try to correct things
> > if the basic mixture is off, but depending on that may result in
> > significant flat spots when you move the throttle pedal.
> >
> > Sure, you can change something like the injectors and then put
> > in an adjustable FPR to try to compensate ... but unless you
> > are on a dyno and have the O2 sensor system disabled you are just
> > stabbing in the dark and guessing.
> >
> > Go back to the source of the ECU chips, and find out for which
MAF,
> > injectors, and FPR they were designed. If your source of chips
> > can't tell you that with certainty, I suggest you forget them and
> > get your ECU re-chipped by a reliable source like Hoppen or IA.
> > A good guess for most chip sources that can't really give you
> > this information, is that the chips were programmed to work with
> > just stock MAF, Injector, and FPR components. You just have to
> > figure out "stock" for which car model.
> >
> > If you read back through the S-Car list archives, you will find
> > story after story of someone who has changed one or more of these
> > components and now wonders why the engine it too rich or too lean.
> > Someone who went through a painful experience like this was Rod
> > some months ago.
> >
> > Also, please notice that I haven't mentioned turbo, manifolds,
> > exhaust, or intercooler. All that stuff influences how much air
> > you can jam into the engine - NOT fuel mixture. All that air gets
> > measured by the MAF. Then the above discussion applies.
> >
> > - Charlie
> >
> > Charlie Smith charlie at e... 614-471-1418
> > http://www.elektro.com/~charlie Columbus Ohio USA
> > http://www.elektro.com/~audi photos & technical info
> >
> > 95 S6 Quattro - 24 PSI, RS2 6 speed, and other features
> > 96 Dodge Ram - 30 PSI, w/Cummins turbo diesel
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > Earlier, jimklein94610 wrote:
> > >
> > > Guys,
> > > I was searching the archives for info on adjustable FPR's etc.
and
> > > came across the posts from below. I had always believed that
people
> > > go to the adjustable FPR due to the fuel pressure needing to be
> > > greater than stock in order to match the fuel requirement with
the
> > > RS2 turbo (assuming of course the RS2 MAF and injectors).
However,
> > > looking at the part numbers and pressure ratings below it
appears
> > > that our stock unit pumps out a little bit MORE pressure than
the RS2
> > > unit does. Couldn't the stock AAN unit be left in place or at
worst
> > > replaced with the correct RS2 unit? Am I completely missing
> > > something (very possible)? Or does the particular software make
a
> > > huge difference (Lehman 3.0 in my case)?
> > >
> > > On a related note, assuming one stayed with the stock MAF, but
> > > installed either RS2 or RC Engineering injectors, then that
makes a
> > > good case for the adjustable FPR in order to finetune the fuel
> > > delivery, right? There seems to be some concern that the RS2
MAF
> > > causes other issues (referencing Paul in San Diego's posts, my
setup
> > > seems to be starting to mirror his more and more)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jim K.
> > > 93S4 (under pressure)
> > >
> > > --- In s-car-list at y..., tommy.arnberg at n... wrote:
> > > > Hi !
> > > >
> > > > (AAN) pressure regulator - 078 133 534 A 4.0BAR
> > > > (3B) pressure regulator - 034 133 534 M 3.0BAR
> > > >
> > > > ADU RS2 pressure regulator - 034 133 534 P 3.8BAR
> > > >
> > > > rgs,
> > > > Tommy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In s-car-list at y..., "Jimmy Pribble, UrS4.com" <jimmy at u...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Crazy Ivan ETKA shows:
> > > > >
> > > > > (AAN) pressure regulator - 078 133 534 A
> > > > > (3B) pressure regulator - 034 133 534 M
> > > > >
> > > > > Keep it under your hats, boys, but ETKA is always available
here:
> > > > > http://catalog.exist.ru/
> > > > >
> > > > > Jimmy "International Man of Misery" Pribble
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: fjamoroso at w... [mailto:fjamoroso at w...]
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:37 PM
> > > > > > To: s-car-list at y...
> > > > > > Subject: [s-cars] ISO 4.5 bar FPR
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hey kids,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The stock UrS fuel pressure regulator is 4.0 BAR, IIRC.
> > > > > > I also have a 5.0 BAR unit in hand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone have the part numbers, Audi & Bosch, for a (I
believe
> > > > 200tq)
> > > > > > 4.5 BAR unit? I am not near an ETKA at the moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am going to play with RC 310 injectors, but along those
> > > lines, I
> > > > > > want to fine tune it with swapping in 4.5 & 5.0 BAR FPRs
as
> > > > needed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know that there is a rail mount Adjustable FPR
available, but
> > > I
> > > > > > figure 4.0, 4.5, and 5.0 non adjustable FPRs should cover
my
> > > > needs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a suspicion that I will settle on the 4.5 BAR unit,
with
> > > > the
> > > > > > 5.0 BAR being held in reserve for trips below 5,000 feet
(Pueblo
> > > > > > Motorsports Park anyone?).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Frank--
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, email: s-car-list-unsubscribe at e...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Join us for the S-CAR Nationals August 31st - September
2nd in
> > > > > > Westminster, Colorado! Now is the time to get your
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Charlie Smith charlie at e... 614-271-1418
> > http://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/ Columbus Ohio USA
> > SMS: charlie.sms at e...
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