[s-cars] [Fwd: FPRs ... The rs2 conversion ECUs and SW ....]

Kirby Smith kirby.a.smith at verizon.net
Tue May 14 10:20:30 EDT 2002 

Very interesting.  Is it possible there is another chip on the board(s)
that maps ECU injector duty cycle commands to actual injector duty
cycle?

Darin Nederhoff wrote:
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> --
>
> --
> Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 12:06:26 -0000
> From: "tommy200rs" <tommy.arnberg at nokia.com>
> To: s-car-list-owner at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: FPRs ...  The rs2 conversion ECUs and SW  ....
> In-Reply-To: <3CA9EB91.5DA9A08F at spotgraphicsinc.com>
> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
>
> Hi !
>
> According to tests with equal HW in same setup except
> THE ECU, I can speculate following:
>
> AAN 551B ECU (3bar) with SAME German made sharp
>              RS2 EPROM sw  runs too rich compared to run in
> ADU 551B ECU (3bar)
>
> ***   ---> ECU´s are not the same   ***
>
> I´ll try to get some information
> how to compensate the AAN ECU HW
> difference(s)in SW   when native based RS2 551B or 551C  SW
>  is run in  AAN ECU.
>
> All help and comments wellcome .
>
> Rgs,
> Tommy
>
> PS. A200 conversion testing completed and NO SW or HW problems :)
>   = it resulted very smooth, but barbarian T5 Coyote Symphony
>
> (well minor change need is to get the mixture slighly leaner
>  between 2400 - 3200 RPM during light drivable load conditions:)
>
> --- In s-car-list at y..., jimk at s... wrote:
> > Thanks Charlie - I think I am pretty much on the same page with my
> > understanding (just phrased it a bit different, sorry.  The RS2
> turbo sucks
> > more air, which is measured by the MAF, which then demands more fuel
> to go
> > with the greater airflow).  Per Hoppen, my chips are a Lehman 3.0
> version for
> > use with stock injectors, MAF, FPR but RS2 turbo and EM.  The chips
> would
> > obviously need to be changed if anything else did, I understand all
> that.
> > In the end though, with an RS2 turbo and EM, you're (I'm) probably
> best off
> > with the RS2 MAF, injectors, and FPR as long as the chipset takes
> all that
> > into account.  My biggest (intended) question was why you can't just
> use the
> > AAN FPR instead of the RS2 unit but thinking about it more I guess
> that 5%
> > pressure difference would obviously have you running 5% rich.
> > Anway, thanks again.  Sorry about my less than articulateness.
> > Jim K.
> >
> > Charlie Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Earlier, jimklein94610 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Guys,
> > > > I was searching the archives for info on adjustable FPR's etc.
> and
> > > > came across the posts from below.  I had always believed that
> people
> > > > go to the adjustable FPR due to the fuel pressure needing to be
> > > > greater than stock in order to match the fuel requirement with
> the
> > > > RS2 turbo (assuming of course the RS2 MAF and injectors).
> > >
> > >   <<tilt light comes on>>  Wait a minute.
> > >
> > > You have overlooked a basic understanding on how these systems
> work.
> > > And then, you've proceded to make it worse from there.
> > >
> > > The system that keeps the mixture correct, that makes the engine
> run
> > > right, and deliver good fuel mileage consists of these parts: MAF,
> > > Injectors, fuel pressure regulator (FPR), and ECU chips that are
> > > programmed to match.
> > >
> > >   A particular type/size of MAF will produce a signal that changes
> as
> > >   the amount of air going through it changes.  A different
> type/size
> > >   of MAF will produce a different signal for the same amount of
> air
> > >   passing through.
> > >
> > >   At some fixed fuel pressure, a particular type/size of injector
> will
> > >   inject a specific amount of fuel when pulsed with an electric
> signal
> > >   of some certain duration.  A different type/size of injector
> will
> > >   inject a different amount of fuel when pulsed for the same
> duration
> > >   at the same fuel pressure.  When operated at some different
> fixed fuel
> > >   pressure the first injector will inject a different amount of
> fuel
> > >   when pulsed at the same duration.
> > >
> > >   The ECU chips containing the fuel control maps are programmed
> > >   to provide exactly the right amount of fuel based on the signal
> > >   from the MAF (and things like rpm, temperature, and boost).
> > >   The ECU provides exactly the right amount of fuel by controlling
> > >   the electric pulse duration to the injectors.  It can keep the
> > >   amount of fuel exactly right because the programming that
> controls
> > >   injector pulse duration is done knowing exactly how much fuel
> will
> > >   be injected for a pulse of that duration.
> > >
> > > If you read the above closely enough, you'll understand that the
> > > system only works right when the ECU chips are matched to a
> specific
> > > type/size of MAF, a specific type/size of injector, and a FPR that
> > > produces some specific fixed pressure.
> > >
> > > If you change just one of those components out of the blue, it's
> > > not going to work right.  Yeah, there are ancillary systems like
> > > the O2 sensor mixture correction system that try to correct things
> > > if the basic mixture is off, but depending on that may result in
> > > significant flat spots when you move the throttle pedal.
> > >
> > > Sure, you can change something like the injectors and then put
> > > in an adjustable FPR to try to compensate ... but unless you
> > > are on a dyno and have the O2 sensor system disabled you are just
> > > stabbing in the dark and guessing.
> > >
> > > Go back to the source of the ECU chips, and find out for which
> MAF,
> > > injectors, and FPR they were designed.  If your source of chips
> > > can't tell you that with certainty, I suggest you forget them and
> > > get your ECU re-chipped by a reliable source like Hoppen or IA.
> > > A good guess for most chip sources that can't really give you
> > > this information, is that the chips were programmed to work with
> > > just stock MAF, Injector, and FPR components.  You just have to
> > > figure out "stock" for which car model.
> > >
> > > If you read back through the S-Car list archives, you will find
> > > story after story of someone who has changed one or more of these
> > > components and now wonders why the engine it too rich or too lean.
> > > Someone who went through a painful experience like this was Rod
> > > some months ago.
> > >
> > > Also, please notice that I haven't mentioned turbo, manifolds,
> > > exhaust, or intercooler.  All that stuff influences how much air
> > > you can jam into the engine - NOT fuel mixture.  All that air gets
> > > measured by the MAF.  Then the above discussion applies.
> > >
> > >     - Charlie
> > >
> > >   Charlie Smith   charlie at e...  614-471-1418
> > >   http://www.elektro.com/~charlie      Columbus Ohio   USA
> > >   http://www.elektro.com/~audi     photos & technical info
> > >
> > >   95 S6 Quattro  -  24 PSI, RS2 6 speed, and other features
> > >   96 Dodge Ram   -  30 PSI, w/Cummins turbo diesel
> > >
> > > ======================================================
> > > ======================================================
> > >
> > > Earlier, jimklein94610 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Guys,
> > > > I was searching the archives for info on adjustable FPR's etc.
> and
> > > > came across the posts from below.  I had always believed that
> people
> > > > go to the adjustable FPR due to the fuel pressure needing to be
> > > > greater than stock in order to match the fuel requirement with
> the
> > > > RS2 turbo (assuming of course the RS2 MAF and injectors).
> However,
> > > > looking at the part numbers and pressure ratings below it
> appears
> > > > that our stock unit pumps out a little bit MORE pressure than
> the RS2
> > > > unit does.  Couldn't the stock AAN unit be left in place or at
> worst
> > > > replaced with the correct RS2 unit?  Am I completely missing
> > > > something (very possible)?  Or does the particular software make
> a
> > > > huge difference (Lehman 3.0 in my case)?
> > > >
> > > > On a related note, assuming one stayed with the stock MAF, but
> > > > installed either RS2 or RC Engineering injectors, then that
> makes a
> > > > good case for the adjustable FPR in order to finetune the fuel
> > > > delivery, right?  There seems to be some concern that the RS2
> MAF
> > > > causes other issues (referencing Paul in San Diego's posts, my
> setup
> > > > seems to be starting to mirror his more and more)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Jim K.
> > > > 93S4 (under pressure)
> > > >
> > > > --- In s-car-list at y..., tommy.arnberg at n... wrote:
> > > > > Hi  !
> > > > >
> > > > > (AAN) pressure regulator - 078 133 534 A    4.0BAR
> > > > > (3B) pressure regulator - 034 133 534 M     3.0BAR
> > > > >
> > > > > ADU RS2 pressure regulator - 034 133 534 P  3.8BAR
> > > > >
> > > > > rgs,
> > > > > Tommy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In s-car-list at y..., "Jimmy Pribble, UrS4.com" <jimmy at u...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Crazy Ivan ETKA shows:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (AAN) pressure regulator - 078 133 534 A
> > > > > > (3B) pressure regulator - 034 133 534 M
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Keep it under your hats, boys, but ETKA is always available
> here:
> > > > > > http://catalog.exist.ru/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jimmy "International Man of Misery" Pribble
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: fjamoroso at w... [mailto:fjamoroso at w...]
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:37 PM
> > > > > > > To: s-car-list at y...
> > > > > > > Subject: [s-cars] ISO 4.5 bar FPR
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hey kids,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The stock UrS fuel pressure regulator is 4.0 BAR, IIRC.
> > > > > > > I also have a 5.0 BAR unit in hand.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyone have the part numbers, Audi & Bosch, for a (I
> believe
> > > > > 200tq)
> > > > > > > 4.5 BAR unit? I am not near an ETKA at the moment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am going to play with RC 310 injectors, but along those
> > > > lines, I
> > > > > > > want to fine tune it with swapping in 4.5 & 5.0 BAR FPRs
> as
> > > > > needed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know that there is a rail mount Adjustable FPR
> available, but
> > > > I
> > > > > > > figure 4.0, 4.5, and 5.0 non adjustable FPRs should cover
> my
> > > > > needs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a suspicion that I will settle on the 4.5 BAR unit,
> with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > 5.0 BAR being held in reserve for trips below 5,000 feet
> (Pueblo
> > > > > > > Motorsports Park anyone?).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Frank--
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, email: s-car-list-unsubscribe at e...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >  Charlie Smith   charlie at e...  614-271-1418
> > >  http://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/  Columbus Ohio   USA
> > >  SMS: charlie.sms at e...
>
> --
>
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