[s-cars] Re: driving ability vs ABS, EDL, DSP, 4-WD, etc

[QSHIPQ at aol.com]

In a message dated 1/10/2003 2:49:18 PM Central Standard Time,
thecyberpoet at cyberpoet.net writes:


> Ask any professional driver, they'd prefer them (ABS).

>>I agree. Given the option, I'd rather have ABS. But can I function
>>safely without it?

Depends on the definition.  There is no question in my mind that the newer
algorithums are getting more car specific, and hence the definition of
"safely" has a raised bar.  If sir idioso can stomp the brake pedal with his
cell phone to his ear, and reduce his braking distance and have increased
control, he's functioning at a higher safety level than you are.  You might
have awareness advantage, but not hardware/software.

>>Yes. Can the majority of drivers under adverse conditions retain
>>steering control of
>>their cars while braking at or very close to maximum without ABS? No.
>>And that's
>>a matter of training, which was my point.

On a track or in the real world?   Marc, when that guy pops out of the lane
in front of you, and does something really stupid and you "react", lockup is
possible.  No one is that good all the time.  ABS can be.  Training only
increases awareness, and can increase skill, but lockup happens to everyone
(even professionals on the track, btst many times - my favorite lockup x 2
was Michael A crashing into the back of dad at the Detroit GP years ago, both
locktumup).

> They were attempted to be used in F1 then banned.  Pretty much
> banned in all motorsport.  Why?  Cuz it creates an unfair advantage.

>>Q: Where is an unfair advantage if all the players on the field use the
>>same technology?

I think it's the "where does it stop" that stopped it early.  Think Marc,
with the data logging technology, you can plug in a chip for x temp, x track,
x chassis, x cof, x driver, and all he needs to do is stomp on the gas, the
computer will do the braking.  "Outrageous"?  Hey, even audi was datalogging
the awd torque bias for each turn at each venue a couple years back....

>>If ABS was standard in F1 and implemented by all, then there would be
>>no basis
>>for banning it.

The purists won the argument.  Raising the bar on hardware technology is fine
in terms of braking.  Raising the bar on software technology in braking
removes driver involvement, and impedes design advantage.  So denied.

> How do you know the skids you are looking at are ABS skids?

>>Do you really not know the difference, or was that a rhetorical
>>question?

I'm asking the difference.  I don't know the difference.  I can look at a lot
of skids (and have), never thought of them in terms of an ABS skid.  Maybe
Keith Maddock can help me here.  Let me share what I see in terms of how abs
might work.  A short skid because ABS engagement sometimes lags behind an
emergency lockup situation, then it engages and holds the wheel at impending
locukup.  Revealed on the pavement as a 10-15foot skid, then nothing by
definition.  I can do the same thing without ABS, and have in emergency
situations.

> Especially in the context of the center differential...

>>Actually, my discussion wasn't primarily centered on the differential,
>>but in that context rather on electronic
>>stability control systems that invoke mixed power & braking.

Torsen centers are a key component of that awd control system.  For more on
the exact subject, there are a variety of technical papers available.  You
should read them as part of "training" Marc.  A lot of your "opinioins"
aren't supported by data.  And there's a lot of it not supporting your
thoughts.

>>It still
>>doesn't change my basic premise, and that is that it there is a lack of
>>training requirement to obtain a license
>>in this country (the USA), especially training for crisis/emergency
>>situations.

Training?  Training is experience, attitude and awareness.  Without
experience, all the training in the world can still very likely add up to a
crash.  I'm a realist Marc.  Training can be had (and the responsibility
shared) by taking any of a plethora of specialized events, from Skippy to
Qclub.  Training for crisis/emergency situations?  In drivers Ed?  I'm
thinking of my gym teacher in high school (who taught my drivers ed)
thinking, "is this really the guy I want 'training' my kid c/e situations?"
No thanks.  So get the best hardware, accept the best software, and the
training stays constant, with optional increases.

To you specifically Marc, I encourage you to actively participate in your
vision.  Become a quattro club instructor, marque event instructor, a mentor
of your vision.  The easiest thing to do is claim 'training' is the problem.
I disagreee with the premise or conclusion of that statement.

Looking forward to meeting you at a quattro club or other marque event.  You
will see me helping students become better drivers, btdt for 10years.  Come
out to steamboat, you might become more optimistic that there is a "demand"
for training too.

My .02

Scott Justusson
'83 urq - steamboat bound