[s-cars] EM type, chip upgrades and cracked heads

[Mihnea Cotet]

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Dave, my polite answer to all this is "Get a life!". I'm sorry but I can't
go on posting 3 pages every time you come on challenging me and the others
with your 2 pages of assumptions/questions/evidence/whatever.

What happened to Hap can be interpreted quite easily but first a few
preliminary questions:
-What EGTs was he running with his T3/T4??? (that isn't an RS2 equivalent
IMHO just because it doesn't flow the same air at the same PR points in the
map) and I bet $2000 that almost no one here on the list knows what EGTs
he's running at WOT.
-What injectors did he have?
-What chips did he have? If he had RS2 chips with a T3/T4 then that's the
answer for me, it's enough for the T4 cold side to flow 10% more than the
K2672 cold side at a particular map point for his exhaust valves to burn,
just because the ECU is dumb enough to "think" that the turbo cold side is
a K2672 (in case his chips were chips for an RS2 turbo, that's just an
assumption but I can't imagine Hap running his hybrid on stock chips).

If my answers don't satisfy you, please stop quoting me and keep on
rambling with the others, I have far better and more interesting things to
do than to discuss burnt exhaust valves with you. I know the "little old
lady" story may sound suspicious (it just doesn't for me, okay?) but I
don't give a damn about that, it's exactly what has happened, believe it or
not and it won't change my life if you don't believe it, for I know it's
true. Additionally I've never said "little old lady" but rather
"middle-aged woman", for me there are about 20 years of difference between
both.

Please don't cc my email address anymore with this thread, I don't want to
read nor to answer on this subject anymore.

Cheers,


Mihnea, a little p*ssed off indeed.


At 16:49 12/07/2003 -0700, Dave Forgie wrote:
>Mihnea: The little old lady story sounds suspciously like the factory
>either put exhaust valve springs in that were too stiff (from another
>application) OR the exhaust cam, for some reason (it was a 7A cam??) had
>too high a lift.  Either way, it would seem like the spring seats were
>unduly but physically stressed by stiff or very compressed (and therefore
>stiff) springs.
>
>One reason that more data about cracks and burnt valves could be available
>from "bone stock" (box stock?) (Botox stock (tm)?) is there are more cars
>that have  lived most of their lives without mods.  Only the loveable nut
>cases on this list modded their cars right out of the showroom floor.  Its
>the second and third owners that are now the ones that are modding what
>was a previously stock car (late in the car's life for that matter).  Its
>these people that are the next but short-lived market (probably four to
>five years max.) for chip upgrades. These are the ones that need to know
>whether an upgraded EM is truely needed or not.
>
>As to never hearing about any burnt exhaust valves in an AAN engine, that
>doesn't mean it didn't happen. Hap Maguire responded to me and Mike
>Pederson on the issue on July 10th and said (sorry Hap, I need your quote):
>
>"Guys: I did run a larger T3/T4(RS2 equivalent) turbo with the stock EM
>for about 4 years and 70,000 miles. I did end up with burnt valves at 1 &
>3.  Hap. "
>
>So, we could both be right.   The valves will eventually burn.  But 70,000
>miles is a long time (e.g. 5 years at 14,000 miles per year,  seven years
>at 10,000 miles (16,000 km) per year).  Some people would consider that to
>be a non-issue, i.e. people who keep their cars less than 70,000
>miles.  However,  I presume that the factory (Audi and Porsche) figured
>that was a BIG deal and therefore, the RS2 EM manifold was designed and/or
>developed - probably to meet the equivalent of 200,000 km or some big
>number without any problems.  Of course, at the same time, they may have
>been able to extract a bit more HP (say, 5 HP) with this new, better
>flowing, less heat risky EM.  It wasn't done just so it would "cool" and
>all the kids would want to buy them (Hi, Pizzoman).
>
>As per someone else's post, it is amazing that nobody has done and/or
>published any four wheel dyno testing on the S-car to show the various HP
>and torque gains: OEM stock (baseline) stock with Stage 1 chip, stock with
>Stage 1+ chip, stock with RS2 EM, Stage 1 with RS2 EM, Stage 1 + with RS2
>manifold, Stock EM but RS2 turbo and appropriate chip step, RS2 EM and
>turbo and appropriate chip set, full RS2 kit (MAF, injectors,  EM, turbo,
>RS2 chip set, etc).  Aren't there any "scientists"/automotive engineers
>out there?  Scott J.? Scott M.?  Ned (Q)?  Dave Jones?  Joe Hoppen?  Bueller?
>
>Dave F.
>
>
>Mihnea Cotet wrote:
>>Dave,
>>
>>
>>In all but one case, all the cracked heads I have seen before were on
>>UNCHIPPED engines running bone stock turbos on bone stock EMs. The
>>chipped engine was running a kind of "racing" chipset for which many
>>things could be blamed but without a real in-depth analysis it would be
>>quite hard to determine wether the chipset was responsible or not for the
>>head damage.
>>
>>Most of the heads that were cracked had those cracks under the exhaust
>>valve springs area as in this particular picture
>>http://www.rs2-club.net/S2R/Images/Culasse3.jpg, one of them was cracked
>>under all 10 valve springs and that was the one driven since new by a
>>middle-aged woman, had 50K miles and had stock everything.
>>
>>So basically, you can draw the conclusion yourself, I for one wouldn't
>>try to draw any yet.
>>
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Mihnea
>>
>>At 23:04 11/07/2003 -0700, Dave Forgie wrote:
>>>Mihnea and others:  When these cracked heads show up, are  there any
>>>correlations between the EM type, the turbo, the chip set, etc.?  What I
>>>was thinking when I asked the EM question a few days ago was, if you go
>>>to an upgraded turbo and/or a chip set that makes 300+ hp and you DO NOT
>>>upgrade the EM,  the probability of burning valves, e.g. 1, 3, and/or 5,
>>>AND/OR cracking the head (e.g. around the exhaust valves or exhaust port
>>>areas) increases dramatically.  I would like to do a litter
>>>forensic-type "epidemiology" (sp?) on this data, if it is available.
>>>
>>>Dave F.
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>S-CAR-List mailing list
>>>S-CAR-List at audifans.com
>>>http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/s-car-list
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