[s-cars] Window issues

Theodore Chen tedebearp at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 15 14:49:20 EDT 2004 

nick,

chad helped me find the problem.  i at first suspected the J139 relay
(the auto-closing module), which did turn out to be bad.  but it was
not the root cause.  the central locking module (V94) was sending a
window/sunroof close signal to the J139 relay repeatedly and killing it
from the rapid cycling.  i determined this when i replaced the J139 relay
and it began clicking rapidly.

however, i didn't replace the central locking module.  i just cut the 
yellow wire and decided to live without the auto-close feature, which
i hardly ever used anyway.  i can always splice it back together if i
want that feature.

the car has been fine since then, and cutting the yellow wire was
undoubtedly cheaper than buying another central locking module.

what i might do, just for kicks, is to connect that yellow wire (leading
to the J139) to the keyless entry system that i'm going to install soon.
then i can press a button on the remote, and have all the windows and
sunroof close.  i think that beats standing there at the door with the
key turned.

-teddy

--- Nicholas Stuart <nick at newtsplace.com> wrote:

> thanks for the info chad. I tried searching the list archives for the info
> as I was sure someone had come across it, but to no luck apparently.
> Anyways, I think I'll give Chris down at Force 5 a call (as thats where I
> got the car from) and see if he can hook me up. If I remember reading
> right the one I want ends in a "J" correct? (from sjm site)
> 
> I'll dig around and see what I come up with. Thanks for the info, and
> until then I'll keep unplugging the silly little relay :) (thank god its
> getting to be cold out and I dont need the windows as much)
> 
> -Nick
> 
> > Nick,
> >
> > I've been waiting my turn to add to this discussion. I have a '92 also and
> > I
> > fought the exact same symptoms as you for about 6 months. I have
> > documented
> > my findings in the archives along with Graydon Stuckey. I am the one who
> > helped Teddy Chen find the ultimate cause.
> >
> > It is indeed the central vacuum control unit. Lets just abbreviate it as
> > cvcm. This resides right next to the battery in a foam casing with a few
> > electrical connectors and some vacuum lines going to it. It controls your
> > locks, your windows and I think it may even have some sunroof control.
> > It will cause all the symptoms you describe including the clicking relay
> > issue under the drivers kick panel and of course a dead battery.
> >
> > Anyway, I found this problem 4 years ago after remembering reading about
> > it
> > in an issue of the Quattro Quarterly. This person found that bad cvcm's
> > were
> > found in most '92 S4 and '92 100 quattros. So I really have this person to
> > thank for helping me(sorry, can't remember the guys name but it was in an
> > issue of QQ from roughly 1999) The fix? Find yourself a used cvcm from at
> > least a '94 S4 or later '95 S6 or A6 as these part numbers were different.
> > It's really only the last letter in the part number that you are looking
> > for
> > that's different. Don't bother cutting anything to "mask" the problem. I
> > paid $150 for a used unit from a '95 A6 4 years ago. I CAN SIT HERE AND
> > FEEL
> > COMFORTABLE GUARNATEEING YOU THIS WILL FIX YOUR PROBLEM! Good luck and let
> > me know if I can be of any more help.
> >
> > Chad Clark
> >
> >
> > on 9/14/04 9:39 AM, Nicholas Stuart at nick at newtsplace.com wrote:
> >
> >> Well, I removed that breaker and the relay was still clicking away :(
> >> and
> >> my window went up by itself. Also, don't I want power to the J139 relay,
> >> as with out it my windows wont work at all? (know from having to unplug
> >> it
> >> so it wont keep clicking).
> >>
> >> I'm not sure if cutting the wire will even work if that didn't. Any
> >> other
> >> ideas anyone?
> >>
> >> Thanks again fred, but unfortunatly it didn't help.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Nick;
> >>>
> >>> Remove the A1 circuit breaker in the relay box under the hood, drivers
> >>> side.
> >>> This will take the power off the J139 relay. You won't have to cut the
> >>> wire.
> >>>
> >>> I've attached a copy of the post Teddy refers to below.
> >>>
> >>> Fred Munro
> >>> '94 S4
> >>>
> >>>>>> Thanks to Tom, Igor, Teddy, Calvin, and Dave for responding to my
> >>>>>> current
> >>> drain question and confirming that the drain was indeed too high.
> >>>
> >>> A bit of work with a digital ammeter isolated the problem to the
> >>> automatic
> >>> window closure circuit. Pulling the A1 breaker in the under-hood relay
> >>> box
> >>> dropped the drain to below 10 mA.
> >>>
> >>> This circuit is designed to close windows or the sunroof if they are
> >>> open
> >>> when the car is locked. This feature has never worked on my car. The
> >>> circuit
> >>> has it's own relay under the driver's side A-pillar kick panel. The
> >>> power
> >>> supply side is "fused" with a 30 amp breaker in the A1 position in the
> >>> underhood relay box. The relay is triggered by a white/yellow wire from
> >>> the
> >>> power window control module.
> >>>
> >>> This is apparently a relatively common source of a battery drain
> >>> problem -
> >>> it is written up on Scott Mockry's website and the recommended fix is
> >>> to
> >>> cut
> >>> the yellow/white wire.
> >>>
> >>> Removing the A1 breaker fixed my problem - this disables the auto close
> >>> circuit and leaves the power windows operational. From this I assume my
> >>> relay is either fused closed or is indeed being activated by the
> >>> control
> >>> module (via the yellow/white wire) and the power drain is in the
> >>> circuit
> >>> itself somewhere.
> >>>
> >>> The car now has a 100 mA drain for 30 seconds after the alarm is set,
> >>> then
> >>> it drops off to 10 mA with a spike to 20 mA every 5 seconds.
> >>>
> >>> A substantial improvement from 280 mA.
> >>>
> >>> When I get some time (ha!) I'll pull the relay to check it out.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
> >>> [mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of Theodore Chen
> >>> Sent: September 13, 2004 7:00 PM
> >>> To: nick at newtsplace.com; s-cars
> >>> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Window issues
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> nick, check the archives.  you can just pull a relay in the engine
> >>> compartment.  fred munro did that - i think it's the A2.  there are
> >>> two relays listed as being for the alarm/locking system.  one of them
> >>> will shut down the system.  the other one won't produce any apparent
> >>> effect.  that one is the correct one.  it's either A1 or A2, if i
> >>> remember
> >>> right.
> >>>
> >>> it's good you caught it, because a new J139 costs $300 from the dealer.
> >>>
> >>> -t.
> >>>
> >>> --- Nicholas Stuart <nick at newtsplace.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks for your help guys. I think for now I'll just cut the little
> >>>> yellow
> >>>> wire. A lot cheaper then the $300 for a pumb ;)
> >>>> I'll eventually replace it, but at the moment I be poor so snip snip
> >>>> it
> >>> is.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Nick
> >>>>
> >>>>> you're lucky you caught it now.  that J139 relay is expensive and
> >>>>> hard
> >>>>> to find.  this is your relay with 329 stamped on it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the culprit is your central locking system, which is commanding the
> >>>> J139
> >>>>> relay to close all the windows.  it causes the relay to click
> >>>>> rapidly,
> >>>>> and eventually die.  mine was bad.  when i got a replacement, i found
> >>>>> the replacement was clicking rapidly, and determined that the central
> >>>>> locking module was killing it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> it also drains the battery, too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://sjmautotechnik.com/trouble_shooting/elec.html#windowrelayclick
> >>>>>
> >>>>> i just cut the wire, but another lister removed a relay (A2?) and
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> stopped it.  check the archives for this list, sometime this year.
> >>>>> i think the other lister was fred munro.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -teddy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- Nicholas Stuart <nick at newtsplace.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello all, I'm new to the list and 'semi' new to my S4. (Quick
> >>>>>> backstory,
> >>>>>> 1992 S4 with 240k + miles, one owner car, runs like a champ, few
> >>>>>> expected
> >>>>>> fixes here and there).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyways, now that that's done with I have a recent problem that I'm
> >>>> not
> >>>>>> sure where to begin with. My power windows are acting really flaky
> >>>> when
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> turn the car off. They work fine when driving and have no issues.
> >>>>>> But
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> will sometimes not turn off (switches still illuminated and work)
> >>>> when
> >>> I
> >>>>>> turn off the car. They will also, sporadically close if i leave them
> >>>>>> open
> >>>>>> and leave the car. And the close while locking feature will also
> >>>>>> work
> >>>>>> occasionally. One last thing is that the big double relay #'ed 329
> >>>> (in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> drivers side foot well by the door) clicks on and off really quickly
> >>>>>> when
> >>>>>> the car is off.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For now, to get around this with out it killing my battery every
> >>>> night,
> >>>>>> I've been removing relay numbered 329 in the panel by the drivers
> >>>> side
> >>>>>> door. I think its a short somewhere, as it doesnt happen all the
> >>>> time.
> >>>>>> Where should I look for a broken where to this? Wires going through
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> door hing area? Or somewhere else? Or could it just be a freaky
> >>>> relay?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for the help/suggestions.
> >>>>>> Nick
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> S-CAR-List mailing list
> >>>>>> S-CAR-List at audifans.com
> >>>>>> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/s-car-list
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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