[s-cars] Thought provoking stuff......NAC

Tue Jun 12 20:45:50 EDT 2007

Good points, Dave. Unfortunately, people's decisions make sense...to them. It's called rational thinking. It goes like this: I've got mega shares in big oil. Selling more oil makes me rich. Selling more oil warms the climate with deleterious effects for many people. That's too bad for them. Selling more oil makes me rich so I can cope with the climate changes. Completely rational. It's very prevalent in our society.

There are only two sources of energy; the sun ("renewable") and the residual thermal heat in good old Terra ("non-renewable"). Wind and water energy result from differential solar heating and evaporation. Oil is stored solar energy, as is coal, wood, biomass etc. It still comes down to the sun. Your points are valid - we could make a relatively smooth transition to sustainable energy with appropriate lifestyle changes and thoughtful adaptation of existing technologies. Will it happen? I don't think so. As you so clearly pointed out, history indicates a crisis is required for that kind of change and it usually doesn't end well. One source of hope I have is the global nature of information. That is new in human history, and if enough of us make small, continual, thoughtful adaptations, maybe change will happen in spite of resistance by those who benefit from the status quo. If enough consumers come up with their own alternatives to oil, there's not much that can be done except make those alternatives illegal or tax them to be more expensive than oil. Oh wait.....

Interesting discussions. As usual, I'm impressed with the awareness, intelligence, and wisdom of the members of this list.

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of djdawson2 at aol.com
Sent: June 12, 2007 1:53 PM
To: jim at activelifestylemassage.com; s-car-list at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Thought provoking stuff......NAC

The points made are all valid... but still remaining is the desire for people to make decisions that make sense.  That is where the flaw lies... people's decisions don't make sense, in the grand scale.  People make decisions primarily based on the economic impact it will have on them.

If we "made sense" we would be maximizing our utilization of "free" energy... the sun, wind, gravity (natural water flow) etc...  We don't do this much.  All those "free" sources can generate electricity and produce hydrogen (electrolysis).  I was a 7th grade student when first shown in a classroom how to produce hydrogen from sulfuric acid and a scrap of zinc.  It immediately struck me that there were very easy ways to produce this fuel that were fairly simple, and had little environmental impact.  I proclaimed to my parents that the world should and *would* be powered by hydrogen... after all, it is the most abundant element in our world, and when burned creates water... the exact source from which we can regenerate more hydrogen using solar power.  Also, the "burned" hydrogen produces pure water... another resource that we spend huge resources to produce when it could simply be a byproduct of our energy consumption.

Now I ask... why wouldn't we use energy that is infinitely available, and whose byproduct is highly desirable pure water?  These is no logical way to rationalize any other alternative.

The bottom line... there are plenty of economic reasons to decide to stay with fossil fuels.  Until those economic benefits go away, don't expect anyone to jump on board with anything else.

I made that innocent proclamation to my parents 30 years ago.  Since then we have done ZERO to really move in that direction.  Does that make sense?

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Fleischer <jim at activelifestylemassage.com>
To: s-car-list at audifans.com
Sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:09 am
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Thought provoking stuff......NAC

Good stuff guys, but I'm not buying the fact that there is no demand.......they 
ad to pry the EV-1 out of the owners hands, and if the benefits of the electric 
ar were marketed, not the limitations, there would be much more interest.  GM 
ays it spent millions marketing the car in the late 90's......funny, I was a 
ubscriber to many car magazines back then and fail to remember even one 
dvertisement.  I think it was some baseball movie not long ago that stated "If 
ou build it, they will come."  GM, Ford and Honda built it, they came, then 
hey were taken away.  California had electric car charging stations built, the 
nfrastructure was happening, then Big Oil and the car manufacturers pressured 
he California Air Resources Board (CARB) to renig on their demands of zero 
missions cars by a certain time period.  (watch the movie, it's really pretty 
ad what happened politically)
As far as sh*t having to hit the fan before we decide it's time to rethink our 
ransportation technology, well it may be too late by then.  Scientific evidence 
bout C02 in the atmosphere is currently off the charts, meaning we really have 
o idea what the effects may be in the near or distant future.  Big business is 
bviously only interested in big profits, however, look where GM and Ford are 
ight now......sucking wind, laying off thousands, while companies like Toyota 
re selling through.  What company has the most hybrid vehicles out there?  
oyota?  Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.  Do you guys think that the Car 
anufacturers and Big Oil aren't in bed with eachother on this one?  They need 
achother, as big oil would not exist without the Internal Combustion Engine.
As far as Hydrogen fuel cells go, it is estimated that they won't be viable for 
nother 15-20 years.  Then you have the huge expense of installing fueling 
tations for the hydrogen.  Oh, has anyone priced Hydrogen lately?  Noone ever 
rings that up, but supposedly it is already more expensive than gasoline, and 
ot as efficient.  Plus, you still end up "paying the man."  Wouldn't electric 
ars charged by wind power or solar energy make so much more sense?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are technologies out there that 
ould truly help with our environmental predicament, whether it be Global 
arming, or simply smog in L.A. and Salt Lake, they are viable, and there is 
nough cash out there that if they were offered, I think there are enough people 
oncerned about our footprint on this earth that they would buy them.  There are 
eople at the highest levels of government and corporations that are standing in 
he way, to secure their future profits for generations to come.  Well it's 
tarting to piss me off, and I hope that others will start getting PO'd as well.

 really do hope that some of you will go and rent the movie.....there are some 
spects of the way the whole EV thing was handled that are pretty enlightening, 
nd maybe, just maybe, a little public knowledge will be a dangerous thing to 
he current establishment.
Thanks for listening.....
Jim Fleischer
95 S6 Avant
91 200TQ
83 ur
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