[s-cars] Thought provoking stuff......NAC

[calvinlc at earthlink.net]

Wow, you guys have been busy while I have been on travel this week :)  Let
me make a few points:

1. I cheer every time gas prices go up.  As Dave has pointed out the only
thing that is going to get people to change is hitting them in the wallet.
If an alternative becomes cheaper and offers the same performance they will
switch...period.  If gas prices are kept artificially low too long we will
simply run out all of a sudden and you haven't seen a war like that one...it
won't be fought for ideals, it will be for survival and it will be dirtier,
bloodier, and more savage than any war in our past, I will guarantee that.

2. Electricity as a means of storage is not all that "clean."  Unless it's
produced by nuclear it still generates CO2.  But what concerns me the most
is the HUGE lanfills full of old used up batteries that are not made out of
particulalry environmentally friendly materials.  Now, if we used the
electricity to do something like compress air and use that storage method
then we don't have near the waste.  The storage method has got to be better
than batteries for it to be widespread and be good for the environment.

3. Mass transit - I was recently in DC on vacation and was amazed at how
great the Metro system is there.  There were plenty of places to live within
a couple of miles of metro stations on the outskirts of town amd you could
hop on and the darn thing could take you damn near anywhere you wanted to
go.  It really is even more complete than the Rome subways I have been on.
I think this can work in a lot more communities than it is presently in.
Denver's light rail system is pathetic and expensive as hell compared to the
Metro in DC.

4. Tidal energy - the energy available every single day from the tides
dwarfs almost all other sources of energy we are talking about here.
Harnessing this energy would be so beneficial.  Especially since the
majority of the world's population lives near the coast the distribution
would be ideal.

5. Jet transporation and plastics - Let's face it, locked up hydrocarbons
perform some functions that other resources simply don't.  I am quite
certain we can power ourselves in electric cars.  However, electric
757's....I don't think so.  We really need to start conserving NOW so that
we have fuel for this type of transportation for a longer period of time,
maybe enough to bridge the gap until people start accepting the fact that we
have the technology right now to fuel the world emissions free - it's called
atomic energy and it's been around for 60 years now...no development needed!
Also plastics use oil.  There are some things that just wouldn't be possible
without this material.  However, useless blister packaging that takes a
butcher knife to open is not one of them.  Why did we go away from cardboard
packaging?

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox for the time being.

--Calvin



-----Original Message-----
From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of Fred Munro
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:46 PM
To: djdawson2 at aol.com; jim at activelifestylemassage.com;
s-car-list at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Thought provoking stuff......NAC


Good points, Dave. Unfortunately, people's decisions make sense...to them.
It's called rational thinking. It goes like this: I've got mega shares in
big oil. Selling more oil makes me rich. Selling more oil warms the climate
with deleterious effects for many people. That's too bad for them. Selling
more oil makes me rich so I can cope with the climate changes. Completely
rational. It's very prevalent in our society.

There are only two sources of energy; the sun ("renewable") and the residual
thermal heat in good old Terra ("non-renewable"). Wind and water energy
result from differential solar heating and evaporation. Oil is stored solar
energy, as is coal, wood, biomass etc. It still comes down to the sun. Your
points are valid - we could make a relatively smooth transition to
sustainable energy with appropriate lifestyle changes and thoughtful
adaptation of existing technologies. Will it happen? I don't think so. As
you so clearly pointed out, history indicates a crisis is required for that
kind of change and it usually doesn't end well. One source of hope I have is
the global nature of information. That is new in human history, and if
enough of us make small, continual, thoughtful adaptations, maybe change
will happen in spite of resistance by those who benefit from the status quo.
If enough consumers come up with their own alternatives to oil, there's not
much that can be done except
 make those alternatives illegal or tax them to be more expensive than oil.
Oh wait.....

Interesting discussions. As usual, I'm impressed with the awareness,
intelligence, and wisdom of the members of this list.

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of djdawson2 at aol.com
Sent: June 12, 2007 1:53 PM
To: jim at activelifestylemassage.com; s-car-list at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Thought provoking stuff......NAC



The points made are all valid... but still remaining is the desire for
people to make decisions that make sense.  That is where the flaw lies...
people's decisions don't make sense, in the grand scale.  People make
decisions primarily based on the economic impact it will have on them.



If we "made sense" we would be maximizing our utilization of "free"
energy... the sun, wind, gravity (natural water flow) etc...  We don't do
this much.  All those "free" sources can generate electricity and produce
hydrogen (electrolysis).  I was a 7th grade student when first shown in a
classroom how to produce hydrogen from sulfuric acid and a scrap of zinc.
It immediately struck me that there were very easy ways to produce this fuel
that were fairly simple, and had little environmental impact.  I proclaimed
to my parents that the world should and *would* be powered by hydrogen...
after all, it is the most abundant element in our world, and when burned
creates water... the exact source from which we can regenerate more hydrogen
using solar power.  Also, the "burned" hydrogen produces pure water...
another resource that we spend huge resources to produce when it could
simply be a byproduct of our energy consumption.



Now I ask... why wouldn't we use energy that is infinitely available, and
whose byproduct is highly desirable pure water?  These is no logical way to
rationalize any other alternative.



The bottom line... there are plenty of economic reasons to decide to stay
with fossil fuels.  Until those economic benefits go away, don't expect
anyone to jump on board with anything else.

I made that innocent proclamation to my parents 30 years ago.  Since then we
have done ZERO to really move in that direction.  Does that make sense?

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Fleischer <jim at activelifestylemassage.com>
To: s-car-list at audifans.com
Sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:09 am
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Thought provoking stuff......NAC




Good stuff guys, but I'm not buying the fact that there is no
demand.......they
ad to pry the EV-1 out of the owners hands, and if the benefits of the
electric
ar were marketed, not the limitations, there would be much more interest.
GM
ays it spent millions marketing the car in the late 90's......funny, I was a
ubscriber to many car magazines back then and fail to remember even one
dvertisement.  I think it was some baseball movie not long ago that stated
"If
ou build it, they will come."  GM, Ford and Honda built it, they came, then
hey were taken away.  California had electric car charging stations built,
the
nfrastructure was happening, then Big Oil and the car manufacturers
pressured
he California Air Resources Board (CARB) to renig on their demands of zero
missions cars by a certain time period.  (watch the movie, it's really
pretty
ad what happened politically)
As far as sh*t having to hit the fan before we decide it's time to rethink
our
ransportation technology, well it may be too late by then.  Scientific
evidence
bout C02 in the atmosphere is currently off the charts, meaning we really
have
o idea what the effects may be in the near or distant future.  Big business
is
bviously only interested in big profits, however, look where GM and Ford are
ight now......sucking wind, laying off thousands, while companies like
Toyota
re selling through.  What company has the most hybrid vehicles out there?
oyota?  Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.  Do you guys think that the Car
anufacturers and Big Oil aren't in bed with eachother on this one?  They
need
achother, as big oil would not exist without the Internal Combustion Engine.
As far as Hydrogen fuel cells go, it is estimated that they won't be viable
for
nother 15-20 years.  Then you have the huge expense of installing fueling
tations for the hydrogen.  Oh, has anyone priced Hydrogen lately?  Noone
ever
rings that up, but supposedly it is already more expensive than gasoline,
and
ot as efficient.  Plus, you still end up "paying the man."  Wouldn't
electric
ars charged by wind power or solar energy make so much more sense?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are technologies out there that
ould truly help with our environmental predicament, whether it be Global
arming, or simply smog in L.A. and Salt Lake, they are viable, and there is
nough cash out there that if they were offered, I think there are enough
people
oncerned about our footprint on this earth that they would buy them.  There
are
eople at the highest levels of government and corporations that are standing
in
he way, to secure their future profits for generations to come.  Well it's
tarting to piss me off, and I hope that others will start getting PO'd as
well.

 really do hope that some of you will go and rent the movie.....there are
some
spects of the way the whole EV thing was handled that are pretty
enlightening,
nd maybe, just maybe, a little public knowledge will be a dangerous thing to
he current establishment.
Thanks for listening.....
Jim Fleischer
95 S6 Avant
91 200TQ
83 ur
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