[s-cars] Vendoring vs Vectoring
Cody Forbes
cody at 5000tq.com
Fri Jun 18 11:50:36 PDT 2010
Isn't it entirely likely that the seal is dry rotten from sitting
without lubrication and likely exposed to air for so long?
-Cody (mobile)
On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:26 PM, Stoddard Robin <rstoddard at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> See my response to Scott's posting on this.
>
> In response to your posting...
> 1) I have been working on & rebuilding "cars" as an amateur for the
> last 30 years. So I would hardly consider myself "a windbag".
> 2) Even if I had screwed up the install (99.9% unlikely) the whole
> car was inspected by and handed over to a master mechanic for
> completion. And so I would also reconsider calling someone in that
> professional category "a windbag".
> 3) If you are a backyard mechanic or even a "qualified gear-head",
> you are still an amateur and not a professional mechanic. As such,
> to say that you always know what you are doing and would never
> experience a failure, is simply showing arrogance and not experience.
>
> Sorry to burst your bubble here, but in this case BW provided a bad
> turbo...period.
>
> RS
>
>
> On 2010-06-17, at 12:54 PM, djdawson2 at aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Agreed... 110%.
>>
>> In my opinion, 034 does a nice job trying to provide good products
>> to what could easily be described as a small marketplace. In this
>> case, 034 is simply "passing through" another company's product...
>> a BW turbo.
>>
>>
>> To expect that company to warrant something beyond what you could/
>> should expect from the manufacturer is silly... even absurd.
>>
>> In the real world (this is the field in which I work), there are
>> circumstances where the manufacturer will warrant a product from
>> the "installed date" as opposed to the purchase date. A great deal
>> of serialized documentation is required to prove what happened
>> when, if a warranty claim is ever to be honored by the OEM.
>> However, I have never seen that be the case for turbochargers. I
>> used to be in a position where I was purchasing dozens of turbos
>> monthly for heavy commercial applications (Detroits, Cats, Cummins,
>> etc...), and a 90 day warranty was typical. Even then, if a
>> failure did occur it was rare that the claim would be honored.
>> Why? They test, spin, and balance these turbos at over 100k rpm
>> before they go into the box. If they fail after you install them,
>> it is almost always due to lack of lubrication on initial start-
>> up. I have seen only 2 occasions in my life where the rotating
>> assembly has come apart (wheel off the shaft)... it is 99% of the
>> time a bearing failure.
>>
>> Bottom line... IMO, if one of your wheels didn't come off the
>> shaft, the failure was your fault at installation.
>>
>> A final editorial opinion... there are a lot of people who jump
>> into working on cars with little knowledge of what they are doing.
>> It isn't really any different than the DIY home improvement
>> disasters that you see on TV. There really isn't anything wrong
>> with this... until something goes sideways. In today's world,
>> everyone's first reaction to a problem is to look around for
>> someone to blame (vectoring?).
>>
>> Now, put yourself in Javad's place. In spite of the foolishness of
>> trying to get warranty on a turbo after 3 years, Javad has
>> absolutely NO way of determining who installed that turbo or that
>> adjustable timing gear he mentioned, or their capabilities. They
>> could be pros, or their toolbox could only contain a crowbar, a
>> hammer, and a set of vice grips... no way for him to know these
>> things. To accept unreasonable responsibility for what happens
>> with a product once in the hands of the end user is an impossible
>> task... and 034 would soon be out of business... and everyone loses.
>>
>> In my experience, you will not see those recognized as qualified
>> gearheads lodging such complaints. This is because they don't
>> experience these sorts of failures... nor will they try and hold a
>> vendor accountable for a part manufactured by someone else (1.8t
>> coils come to mind).
>>
>> Again... these are just my opinions. The good news is that I doubt
>> these sorts of things do little damage to folks like Javad in the
>> long run. The windbags that complain about something ridiculous
>> are typically recognized as such. The folks that know what they
>> are doing (and yes, I will include myself in this list of people),
>> will still tell you that going to 034 for your needs is a very good
>> choice.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: qshipq at aol.com
>> To: s-car-list at audifans.com
>> Cc: JShadzi at aol.com
>> Sent: Thu, Jun 17, 2010 11:47 am
>> Subject: [s-cars] Vendoring vs Vectoring
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I skipped the topic "Life Lesson" until I took the time to read
>> both of Javad's
>>
>> responses. Both well written by Javad, and frankly, give too much
>> information
>>
>> to those that have no right to it. Backing up to the original
>> poster and his
>>
>> complaint, a turbo sitting 3 years before install, should be pre-
>> lubed and spun
>>
>> (minimally) before install, and certainly deserves no after-sale
>> service
>>
>> expectation 3 years later. Borg Warner tests their turbos before
>> they leave the
>>
>> factory, and I'd bet a post-mortum teardown of that claimed
>> 'defective turbo'
>>
>> will reveal this isn't BW or 034 issue/problem, and that turbo was
>> not defective
>>
>> at the time of sale.
>>
>>
>>
>> This could be a 'life lesson', but to the OP. Regardless if 034
>> made 1000
>>
>> profit on the product, the service expectation is the unreasonable
>> part of the
>>
>> story. Ironically, at vendor admitted 200 dollar 'profit', that
>> service
>>
>> expectation is no less. That might be Javad's life lesson, one I
>> learned many
>>
>> years ago. Price does not equal value.
>>
>>
>>
>> Second life lesson, be selfish to your own situation. Spamming a
>> vendor over
>>
>> something this absurd, seems to reinforce the reason good vendors
>> can lose their
>>
>> business over perceived price>value relationships. IMO, Javad
>> offered more than
>>
>> I would under the same circumstances. 3 years a turbo sits, then
>> one wants to
>>
>> install it and expect to spin it at 120k rpm? My advice as a turbo-
>> guy, take
>>
>> the offer made to you, and say thank you. Expecting more means you
>> have an
>>
>> unrealistic expectations of vendors, don't know how a turbo works,
>> and what is
>>
>> good business resolution.
>>
>>
>>
>> To the fuel of the fire by others... Wrong forum, see lesson 2.
>> I've resolved
>>
>> hundreds of 'customer complaints' in my former life as a National
>> Sales Manager,
>>
>> as well as, more recently in the Audi-service arena. Coilpack
>> complaints? You
>>
>> have to be kidding, VW and Audi couldn't get them right from the
>> factory,
>>
>> remember who started the problem vs attacking those attempting to
>> address it.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are many vendors/Audi techs that lurk on these lists, and
>> life lesson 3
>>
>> might argue, for good reason. Robin, your post at best is
>> incomplete - I call
>>
>> it just plain unfair and unjust. One on one with 034, and/or if
>> you insist on
>>
>> sharing, a very detailed post of the circumstances of the install
>> would be a
>>
>> better first step. A NIB turbo isn't "blown", and you don't even
>> define what
>>
>> that is. For any 'consideration' of your plight within the 3 month
>> warranty
>>
>> period, Borg Warner requires documentation far beyond "I put it in
>> my car and it
>>
>> 'was blown'" What changes when a 3rd party vendor sold it to you,
>> and you chose
>>
>> to wait 3 years for the install? Where's the post or inquiry to
>> 034/BW/s-car
>>
>> list: "Need advice on installing 3 year old turbo". That sir,
>> very well might
>>
>> have saved you a lot of self-inflicted wounds.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd advise against wielding axes at by-standers, whatever your
>> intent, it only
>>
>> is fueled by the S-car blood-thirsty crowd buzzing over the
>> carnage. Me, I see
>>
>> only blood stains finding you, and a concerned Vendor trying hard
>> to defend
>>
>> himself without any real cause to do so. Life lesson experiences
>> are given to
>>
>> our children as part of parenting. Causing carnage to 034 over
>> frustration,
>>
>> just isn't enough information to pass a life-lesson on to anyone.
>>
>>
>>
>> IMO
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Robin Stoddard <rstoddard at shaw.ca>
>>
>> To: s-car-list at audifans.com <s-car-list at audifans.com>
>>
>> Sent: Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:34 pm
>>
>> Subject: [s-cars] Blown turbo & Life lesson #3568921
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I bought a pair of new RS4 turbos from a tuner that specializes in
>>
>>
>>
>> Audi based mods three years ago for a race car build. Only to find
>>
>>
>>
>> out (now that the car finally runs) that one of the new turbos is
>>
>>
>>
>> blown. The company's response that sold them to me is "sucks to be
>>
>>
>>
>> you" because we (or anyone else) will not warrent our parts for that
>>
>>
>>
>> long.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> So the lesson here is, TEST your f'n parts before you install them
>>
>>
>>
>> espescially when dealing with a certain Audi turner/parts company.
>>
>>
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>>
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