[s-cars] Vendoring vs Vectoring
Stoddard Robin
rstoddard at shaw.ca
Fri Jun 18 11:26:19 PDT 2010
Dave,
See my response to Scott's posting on this.
In response to your posting...
1) I have been working on & rebuilding "cars" as an amateur for the last 30 years. So I would hardly consider myself "a windbag".
2) Even if I had screwed up the install (99.9% unlikely) the whole car was inspected by and handed over to a master mechanic for completion. And so I would also reconsider calling someone in that professional category "a windbag".
3) If you are a backyard mechanic or even a "qualified gear-head", you are still an amateur and not a professional mechanic. As such, to say that you always know what you are doing and would never experience a failure, is simply showing arrogance and not experience.
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but in this case BW provided a bad turbo...period.
RS
On 2010-06-17, at 12:54 PM, djdawson2 at aol.com wrote:
>
> Agreed... 110%.
>
> In my opinion, 034 does a nice job trying to provide good products to what could easily be described as a small marketplace. In this case, 034 is simply "passing through" another company's product... a BW turbo.
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> To expect that company to warrant something beyond what you could/should expect from the manufacturer is silly... even absurd.
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> In the real world (this is the field in which I work), there are circumstances where the manufacturer will warrant a product from the "installed date" as opposed to the purchase date. A great deal of serialized documentation is required to prove what happened when, if a warranty claim is ever to be honored by the OEM. However, I have never seen that be the case for turbochargers. I used to be in a position where I was purchasing dozens of turbos monthly for heavy commercial applications (Detroits, Cats, Cummins, etc...), and a 90 day warranty was typical. Even then, if a failure did occur it was rare that the claim would be honored. Why? They test, spin, and balance these turbos at over 100k rpm before they go into the box. If they fail after you install them, it is almost always due to lack of lubrication on initial start-up. I have seen only 2 occasions in my life where the rotating assembly has come apart (wheel off the shaft)... it is 99% of the time a bearing failure.
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> Bottom line... IMO, if one of your wheels didn't come off the shaft, the failure was your fault at installation.
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> A final editorial opinion... there are a lot of people who jump into working on cars with little knowledge of what they are doing. It isn't really any different than the DIY home improvement disasters that you see on TV. There really isn't anything wrong with this... until something goes sideways. In today's world, everyone's first reaction to a problem is to look around for someone to blame (vectoring?).
>
> Now, put yourself in Javad's place. In spite of the foolishness of trying to get warranty on a turbo after 3 years, Javad has absolutely NO way of determining who installed that turbo or that adjustable timing gear he mentioned, or their capabilities. They could be pros, or their toolbox could only contain a crowbar, a hammer, and a set of vice grips... no way for him to know these things. To accept unreasonable responsibility for what happens with a product once in the hands of the end user is an impossible task... and 034 would soon be out of business... and everyone loses.
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> In my experience, you will not see those recognized as qualified gearheads lodging such complaints. This is because they don't experience these sorts of failures... nor will they try and hold a vendor accountable for a part manufactured by someone else (1.8t coils come to mind).
>
> Again... these are just my opinions. The good news is that I doubt these sorts of things do little damage to folks like Javad in the long run. The windbags that complain about something ridiculous are typically recognized as such. The folks that know what they are doing (and yes, I will include myself in this list of people), will still tell you that going to 034 for your needs is a very good choice.
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> Dave
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: qshipq at aol.com
> To: s-car-list at audifans.com
> Cc: JShadzi at aol.com
> Sent: Thu, Jun 17, 2010 11:47 am
> Subject: [s-cars] Vendoring vs Vectoring
>
>
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> I skipped the topic "Life Lesson" until I took the time to read both of Javad's
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> responses. Both well written by Javad, and frankly, give too much information
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> to those that have no right to it. Backing up to the original poster and his
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> complaint, a turbo sitting 3 years before install, should be pre-lubed and spun
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> (minimally) before install, and certainly deserves no after-sale service
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> expectation 3 years later. Borg Warner tests their turbos before they leave the
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> factory, and I'd bet a post-mortum teardown of that claimed 'defective turbo'
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> will reveal this isn't BW or 034 issue/problem, and that turbo was not defective
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> at the time of sale.
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> This could be a 'life lesson', but to the OP. Regardless if 034 made 1000
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> profit on the product, the service expectation is the unreasonable part of the
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> story. Ironically, at vendor admitted 200 dollar 'profit', that service
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> expectation is no less. That might be Javad's life lesson, one I learned many
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> years ago. Price does not equal value.
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> Second life lesson, be selfish to your own situation. Spamming a vendor over
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> something this absurd, seems to reinforce the reason good vendors can lose their
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> business over perceived price>value relationships. IMO, Javad offered more than
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> I would under the same circumstances. 3 years a turbo sits, then one wants to
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> install it and expect to spin it at 120k rpm? My advice as a turbo-guy, take
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> the offer made to you, and say thank you. Expecting more means you have an
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> unrealistic expectations of vendors, don't know how a turbo works, and what is
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> good business resolution.
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> To the fuel of the fire by others... Wrong forum, see lesson 2. I've resolved
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> hundreds of 'customer complaints' in my former life as a National Sales Manager,
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> as well as, more recently in the Audi-service arena. Coilpack complaints? You
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> have to be kidding, VW and Audi couldn't get them right from the factory,
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> remember who started the problem vs attacking those attempting to address it.
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> There are many vendors/Audi techs that lurk on these lists, and life lesson 3
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> might argue, for good reason. Robin, your post at best is incomplete - I call
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> it just plain unfair and unjust. One on one with 034, and/or if you insist on
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> sharing, a very detailed post of the circumstances of the install would be a
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> better first step. A NIB turbo isn't "blown", and you don't even define what
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> that is. For any 'consideration' of your plight within the 3 month warranty
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> period, Borg Warner requires documentation far beyond "I put it in my car and it
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> 'was blown'" What changes when a 3rd party vendor sold it to you, and you chose
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> to wait 3 years for the install? Where's the post or inquiry to 034/BW/s-car
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> list: "Need advice on installing 3 year old turbo". That sir, very well might
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> have saved you a lot of self-inflicted wounds.
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> I'd advise against wielding axes at by-standers, whatever your intent, it only
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> is fueled by the S-car blood-thirsty crowd buzzing over the carnage. Me, I see
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> only blood stains finding you, and a concerned Vendor trying hard to defend
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> himself without any real cause to do so. Life lesson experiences are given to
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> our children as part of parenting. Causing carnage to 034 over frustration,
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> just isn't enough information to pass a life-lesson on to anyone.
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> IMO
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> Scott J
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> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Robin Stoddard <rstoddard at shaw.ca>
>
> To: s-car-list at audifans.com <s-car-list at audifans.com>
>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:34 pm
>
> Subject: [s-cars] Blown turbo & Life lesson #3568921
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> I bought a pair of new RS4 turbos from a tuner that specializes in
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> Audi based mods three years ago for a race car build. Only to find
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> out (now that the car finally runs) that one of the new turbos is
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> blown. The company's response that sold them to me is "sucks to be
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> you" because we (or anyone else) will not warrent our parts for that
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> long.
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> So the lesson here is, TEST your f'n parts before you install them
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> espescially when dealing with a certain Audi turner/parts company.
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