[urq] More of the car that wouldn't start

[Brandon Rogers]

you'd think that wouldn't you - but it works.

I guess you could plug the muffler as somebody mentioned - but I've never
done that.

 Set your compressor regulator to like 12 psi and let it pressurize the
intake- yes some air goes out the valves - but you can't hear it really.
You _can_ hear air hissing or whistlng out of a slit hose, loose connection
etc, much clearer.  And I use a stethoscope with a hose (basic 2.5mm braided
stuff) on the end (FLAPS cheapy special) - then you _really_ know when you
isolated the leak- it's loud with a steth.

Best diagnostic tool there is on a WX, period, IMO.

hth-

Brandon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Bennett" <ur.quattro at verizon.net>
To: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>; "Thatcher Hubbard"
<thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start


> use a smoke machine to find intake and boost leaks, any other method is
seat
> of the pants, hip shooting. just using air noise, what a joke, the intake
> valves are open, so are the exhaust,,, air noise!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>
> To: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
>
>
> > hopefully somebody will chime in *hint* hint* who has made the little
plug
> > from pvc pipe.  you drill it and install a air fitting so you can hook
it
> up
> > to a compressor- keep pressur elow- like 10 psi or so.  Some people
> > recommend disconnecting the line the ECU as precaution...I don't have
one
> of
> > these anymore as it won't fit the intake hose for a 3B...
> >
> > so somebody else chime in please
> >
> > Brandon
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> > To: "Patrick Carlier" <p.carlier at pandora.be>
> > Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 12:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> >
> >
> > > Per Brandon's suggestion, I'm going to try to figure out how to
> > > pressurize the IM with the equipment I have, or can borrow.  With the
> > > exception of a couple of hoses I've already replaced, all the other
> > > hoses are the same that left Ingolstadt in May of 82, so they'll be
> > > replaced one way or another.
> > >
> > > I had put replacing the Michelin Man hose down as a preventetive
> > > maintenance item on my list, after I'd gotten the car running again.
> > > I'm interested in the Aircraft Spruce solution that Bill offered up,
> > > so if I wrap it in tape and it "fixes" the problem, I'll do that
> > > immediately.
> > >
> > > Patrick, yes, I replaced every seal that you come even near when I
> > > took the head off it.  I put new injector inserts into the head, and
> > > replaced the original black injector o-rings with the green ones.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:40:48 +0100, Patrick Carlier
> <p.carlier at pandora.be>
> > wrote:
> > > > Another way to test leaky intake parts is to have the engine running
,
> > > > and then spray a flammable liquid on suspicious junctions .
> > > > Motorstart spray is a good example , or a non lit propane torch .
> > > > Use with caution offcourse , don't go spraying like an idiot .
> > > >
> > > > If you hit or come near the intake leak , rpm will change .
> > > >
> > > > You've pulled the head right ?
> > > > How about the big o-rings that seal the injectors to the head .
> > > >
> > > > Pat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>
> > > > To: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>; "Buchholz,
> Steven"
> > > > <steven.buchholz at kla-tencor.com>
> > > > Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 7:22 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> > > >
> > > > > Yes you can tightly wrap the igloo to turbo hose with duct tape
for
> > > > > diagnostic purposes.  It may even last a while but I would get a
new
> > hose
> > > > > asap - whether you choose factory or otherwise.  I know people
have
> > > > figured
> > > > > out how to use modify metal tubes froma  5kt to work...
> > > > >
> > > > > This is why pressurizing the intake is, IMO, the best diagnostic
> tool
> > for
> > > > > the WX motors...Once you know the system is sealed you can focus
on
> > > > > components and DC...
> > > > >
> > > > > Brandon
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> > > > > To: "Buchholz, Steven" <steven.buchholz at kla-tencor.com>
> > > > > Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:51 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > You know, I hadn't even thought of that, despite the fact that I
> had
> > > > > > examined that hose while I had it out of the car and noticed
that
> a
> > > > > > couple of the wire hoops had busted out of their fabric
covering.
> > The
> > > > > > info I'd seen on that hose failing was all "I was driving on the
> > > > > > highway and suddenly", but I guess if it's a small tear it would
> be
> > > > > > just like taking the oil cap off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a troubleshooting technique, can I just wrap the thing in
duct
> > > > > > tape?  I know that it would not last, especially not at any kind
> of
> > > > > > RPM, but just to see if I can get the car to idle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am also going to check the duty cycle.  The car has not had
much
> > > > > > work done to it over the years, but what has been done was not
> > > > > > necessarily by a great mechanic.  When I removed the head from
the
> > car
> > > > > > and was (carefully) removing the EM bolts and studs, I found a
> > couple
> > > > > > of points where someone had started to drill the studs out and
> then
> > > > > > thought the better of it.  The engine shop didn't think they'd
be
> a
> > > > > > problem, but it was something of an indicator for me of how well
> it
> > > > > > had been maintained.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:28:46 -0800, Buchholz, Steven
> > > > > > <steven.buchholz at kla-tencor.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > ... one of the things you shouldn't worry at all about is the
> > ignition
> > > > > > > timing ... this is set very precisely based on the flywheel
> teeth
> > and
> > > > > > > the reference pin ... I suppose damaged flywheel might screw
> > timing
> > > > up,
> > > > > > > but that would most likely affect high rev operation (IMO).
Any
> > > > > > > adjustment of the distributor does not actually change the
> > ignition
> > > > > > > timing ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree that it is likely that there is unmetered air getting
> into
> > the
> > > > > > > intake tract ... and IMO one of the prime suspects is the same
> > intake
> > > > > > > hose we've been talking about on another thread.  The hose
from
> > the
> > > > top
> > > > > > > of the airflow sensor (igloo) to the turbo inlet is notorious
> for
> > > > > > > leaking, and sometimes the breaks in the hose are not easily
> > visible.
> > > > > > > The hose is rather simple to remove and test to see if it is
> > leaking.
> > > > > > > Removing the vacuum line at the top of the igloo will cause
the
> > > > > > > possibility of unmetered air, but I doubt it would be enough
to
> > screw
> > > > up
> > > > > > > the idle.  You may want to plug it just to be sure ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One other thing to beware of is the OXS Freq Valve ... do you
> hear
> > it
> > > > > > > buzzing at all while the engine is running?  Do you hear the
> > buzzing
> > > > > > > start and stop while the engine is running?  If you have a
duty
> > cycle
> > > > > > > meter, hook it up to the diagnostic plug in the loom near the
> > firewall
> > > > > > > on the passenger side and see what you are reading for duty
> cycle.
> > If
> > > > > > > you close the WOT switch at idle the ECU will force the duty
> cycle
> > to
> > > > > > > 50%, which tends to speed the idle up a tad on my car ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Given you are just talking about idle the manifold pressure
line
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > ECU is not likely to be contributing to your problem (IMO),
but
> as
> > > > > > > always ... you can never say for sure for something that is
not
> > > > > > > configured properly ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bon chance!
> > > > > > > Steve B
> > > > > > > San Jose, CA (USA)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It will start now, as it would yesterday.  I checked the
> timing
> > > > (that
> > > > > > > > is, the position of the cam versus the crank) and I was
indeed
> > off a
> > > > > > > > tooth, although when I restarted the car it ran even more
> > roughly
> > > > than
> > > > > > > > before.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We've tried adjusting the distributor, the range in which it
> > will
> > > > > > > > actually fire the coil is small, and it doesn't seem to
matter
> > where
> > > > > > > > we position it, the car will die if I don't use the throttle
> to
> > keep
> > > > > > > > it at about 1k rpm.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I also checked all of my vacuum routing and such (thanks for
> the
> > > > ETKA
> > > > > > > > slides and the routing diagram Louis-Alain).  There were two
> > things
> > > > > > > > that I had not connected, the first being the small hose
that
> > goes
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > the outside/underside of the igloo towards the front, and
the
> > ECU.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The ECU hose deserves its own discussion.  The digrams I
have
> > > > clearly
> > > > > > > > indicate that it go on the left-rear port (from the front of
> the
> > car
> > > > > > > > looking back) of that group of four small ports that come
off
> > the
> > > > back
> > > > > > > > of the IM.  The left rear port is slightly larger than the
> other
> > > > three
> > > > > > > > though, which would indicate to me that a larger hose needs
to
> > be
> > > > > > > > attached to it.  My ECU hose is so brittle that I had to cut
> it
> > back
> > > > > > > > and put one fo those inline hose splices in it.  I was
> wondering
> > if
> > > > > > > > anyone else had noticed this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, the car will start after a crank or two (right away
pretty
> > much)
> > > > > > > > but will not idle at all, will run pretty roughly at 1k rpm
> and
> > > > though
> > > > > > > > the engine will rev when I give it more gas, it's still
pretty
> > rough
> > > > > > > > (not like it used to be).  It seems like a timing issue, but
> I'm
> > > > > > > > running out of places to be wrong on that.  I'm pretty sure
> the
> > coil
> > > > > > > > wouldn't even fire if I had the distributor in wrong (wrong
> > relation
> > > > > > > > to cam) and like I said above, it doesn't seem to matter
where
> > we
> > > > > > > > position the distributor body versus the dizzy itself, the
car
> > still
> > > > > > > > doesn't run well.
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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