[urq] More of the car that wouldn't start

Tue Nov 9 00:49:19 EST 2004

Actually Brandon, I use a stethoscope also, though mine has 4.0 mm ID red
silicone hose with a removable metal probe and a diaphram thingy, it is most
usefull with the end open as you mentioned. Bill PS it came with 50 Q-Tips,
and instuctions,, sheet, the supplier must think all mechanics have dirty
ears and are stoopid.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>
To: "Bill Bennett" <ur.quattro at verizon.net>
Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start


> you'd think that wouldn't you - but it works.
>
> I guess you could plug the muffler as somebody mentioned - but I've never
> done that.
>
>  Set your compressor regulator to like 12 psi and let it pressurize the
> intake- yes some air goes out the valves - but you can't hear it really.
> You _can_ hear air hissing or whistlng out of a slit hose, loose
connection
> etc, much clearer.  And I use a stethoscope with a hose (basic 2.5mm
braided
> stuff) on the end (FLAPS cheapy special) - then you _really_ know when you
> isolated the leak- it's loud with a steth.
>
> Best diagnostic tool there is on a WX, period, IMO.
>
> hth-
>
> Brandon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Bennett" <ur.quattro at verizon.net>
> To: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>; "Thatcher Hubbard"
> <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
>
>
> > use a smoke machine to find intake and boost leaks, any other method is
> seat
> > of the pants, hip shooting. just using air noise, what a joke, the
intake
> > valves are open, so are the exhaust,,, air noise!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>
> > To: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> > Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:22 AM
> > Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> >
> >
> > > hopefully somebody will chime in *hint* hint* who has made the little
> plug
> > > from pvc pipe.  you drill it and install a air fitting so you can hook
> it
> > up
> > > to a compressor- keep pressur elow- like 10 psi or so.  Some people
> > > recommend disconnecting the line the ECU as precaution...I don't have
> one
> > of
> > > these anymore as it won't fit the intake hose for a 3B...
> > >
> > > so somebody else chime in please
> > >
> > > Brandon
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> > > To: "Patrick Carlier" <p.carlier at pandora.be>
> > > Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 12:00 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> > >
> > >
> > > > Per Brandon's suggestion, I'm going to try to figure out how to
> > > > pressurize the IM with the equipment I have, or can borrow.  With
the
> > > > exception of a couple of hoses I've already replaced, all the other
> > > > hoses are the same that left Ingolstadt in May of 82, so they'll be
> > > > replaced one way or another.
> > > >
> > > > I had put replacing the Michelin Man hose down as a preventetive
> > > > maintenance item on my list, after I'd gotten the car running again.
> > > > I'm interested in the Aircraft Spruce solution that Bill offered up,
> > > > so if I wrap it in tape and it "fixes" the problem, I'll do that
> > > > immediately.
> > > >
> > > > Patrick, yes, I replaced every seal that you come even near when I
> > > > took the head off it.  I put new injector inserts into the head, and
> > > > replaced the original black injector o-rings with the green ones.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:40:48 +0100, Patrick Carlier
> > <p.carlier at pandora.be>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Another way to test leaky intake parts is to have the engine
running
> ,
> > > > > and then spray a flammable liquid on suspicious junctions .
> > > > > Motorstart spray is a good example , or a non lit propane torch .
> > > > > Use with caution offcourse , don't go spraying like an idiot .
> > > > >
> > > > > If you hit or come near the intake leak , rpm will change .
> > > > >
> > > > > You've pulled the head right ?
> > > > > How about the big o-rings that seal the injectors to the head .
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>
> > > > > To: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>; "Buchholz,
> > Steven"
> > > > > <steven.buchholz at kla-tencor.com>
> > > > > Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 7:22 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes you can tightly wrap the igloo to turbo hose with duct tape
> for
> > > > > > diagnostic purposes.  It may even last a while but I would get a
> new
> > > hose
> > > > > > asap - whether you choose factory or otherwise.  I know people
> have
> > > > > figured
> > > > > > out how to use modify metal tubes froma  5kt to work...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is why pressurizing the intake is, IMO, the best diagnostic
> > tool
> > > for
> > > > > > the WX motors...Once you know the system is sealed you can focus
> on
> > > > > > components and DC...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brandon
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> > > > > > To: "Buchholz, Steven" <steven.buchholz at kla-tencor.com>
> > > > > > Cc: <urq at audifans.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:51 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > You know, I hadn't even thought of that, despite the fact that
I
> > had
> > > > > > > examined that hose while I had it out of the car and noticed
> that
> > a
> > > > > > > couple of the wire hoops had busted out of their fabric
> covering.
> > > The
> > > > > > > info I'd seen on that hose failing was all "I was driving on
the
> > > > > > > highway and suddenly", but I guess if it's a small tear it
would
> > be
> > > > > > > just like taking the oil cap off.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a troubleshooting technique, can I just wrap the thing in
> duct
> > > > > > > tape?  I know that it would not last, especially not at any
kind
> > of
> > > > > > > RPM, but just to see if I can get the car to idle.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am also going to check the duty cycle.  The car has not had
> much
> > > > > > > work done to it over the years, but what has been done was not
> > > > > > > necessarily by a great mechanic.  When I removed the head from
> the
> > > car
> > > > > > > and was (carefully) removing the EM bolts and studs, I found a
> > > couple
> > > > > > > of points where someone had started to drill the studs out and
> > then
> > > > > > > thought the better of it.  The engine shop didn't think they'd
> be
> > a
> > > > > > > problem, but it was something of an indicator for me of how
well
> > it
> > > > > > > had been maintained.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:28:46 -0800, Buchholz, Steven
> > > > > > > <steven.buchholz at kla-tencor.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > ... one of the things you shouldn't worry at all about is
the
> > > ignition
> > > > > > > > timing ... this is set very precisely based on the flywheel
> > teeth
> > > and
> > > > > > > > the reference pin ... I suppose damaged flywheel might screw
> > > timing
> > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > but that would most likely affect high rev operation (IMO).
> Any
> > > > > > > > adjustment of the distributor does not actually change the
> > > ignition
> > > > > > > > timing ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree that it is likely that there is unmetered air
getting
> > into
> > > the
> > > > > > > > intake tract ... and IMO one of the prime suspects is the
same
> > > intake
> > > > > > > > hose we've been talking about on another thread.  The hose
> from
> > > the
> > > > > top
> > > > > > > > of the airflow sensor (igloo) to the turbo inlet is
notorious
> > for
> > > > > > > > leaking, and sometimes the breaks in the hose are not easily
> > > visible.
> > > > > > > > The hose is rather simple to remove and test to see if it is
> > > leaking.
> > > > > > > > Removing the vacuum line at the top of the igloo will cause
> the
> > > > > > > > possibility of unmetered air, but I doubt it would be enough
> to
> > > screw
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > > the idle.  You may want to plug it just to be sure ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One other thing to beware of is the OXS Freq Valve ... do
you
> > hear
> > > it
> > > > > > > > buzzing at all while the engine is running?  Do you hear the
> > > buzzing
> > > > > > > > start and stop while the engine is running?  If you have a
> duty
> > > cycle
> > > > > > > > meter, hook it up to the diagnostic plug in the loom near
the
> > > firewall
> > > > > > > > on the passenger side and see what you are reading for duty
> > cycle.
> > > If
> > > > > > > > you close the WOT switch at idle the ECU will force the duty
> > cycle
> > > to
> > > > > > > > 50%, which tends to speed the idle up a tad on my car ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Given you are just talking about idle the manifold pressure
> line
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > ECU is not likely to be contributing to your problem (IMO),
> but
> > as
> > > > > > > > always ... you can never say for sure for something that is
> not
> > > > > > > > configured properly ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bon chance!
> > > > > > > > Steve B
> > > > > > > > San Jose, CA (USA)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It will start now, as it would yesterday.  I checked the
> > timing
> > > > > (that
> > > > > > > > > is, the position of the cam versus the crank) and I was
> indeed
> > > off a
> > > > > > > > > tooth, although when I restarted the car it ran even more
> > > roughly
> > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > before.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We've tried adjusting the distributor, the range in which
it
> > > will
> > > > > > > > > actually fire the coil is small, and it doesn't seem to
> matter
> > > where
> > > > > > > > > we position it, the car will die if I don't use the
throttle
> > to
> > > keep
> > > > > > > > > it at about 1k rpm.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I also checked all of my vacuum routing and such (thanks
for
> > the
> > > > > ETKA
> > > > > > > > > slides and the routing diagram Louis-Alain).  There were
two
> > > things
> > > > > > > > > that I had not connected, the first being the small hose
> that
> > > goes
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > the outside/underside of the igloo towards the front, and
> the
> > > ECU.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The ECU hose deserves its own discussion.  The digrams I
> have
> > > > > clearly
> > > > > > > > > indicate that it go on the left-rear port (from the front
of
> > the
> > > car
> > > > > > > > > looking back) of that group of four small ports that come
> off
> > > the
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > of the IM.  The left rear port is slightly larger than the
> > other
> > > > > three
> > > > > > > > > though, which would indicate to me that a larger hose
needs
> to
> > > be
> > > > > > > > > attached to it.  My ECU hose is so brittle that I had to
cut
> > it
> > > back
> > > > > > > > > and put one fo those inline hose splices in it.  I was
> > wondering
> > > if
> > > > > > > > > anyone else had noticed this.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, the car will start after a crank or two (right away
> pretty
> > > much)
> > > > > > > > > but will not idle at all, will run pretty roughly at 1k
rpm
> > and
> > > > > though
> > > > > > > > > the engine will rev when I give it more gas, it's still
> pretty
> > > rough
> > > > > > > > > (not like it used to be).  It seems like a timing issue,
but
> > I'm
> > > > > > > > > running out of places to be wrong on that.  I'm pretty
sure
> > the
> > > coil
> > > > > > > > > wouldn't even fire if I had the distributor in wrong
(wrong
> > > relation
> > > > > > > > > to cam) and like I said above, it doesn't seem to matter
> where
> > > we
> > > > > > > > > position the distributor body versus the dizzy itself, the
> car
> > > still
> > > > > > > > > doesn't run well.
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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> > ...
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > contributions welcome!
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