Yeah, that's right, laughing. My buddy's fwd Maxima wouldn't pull his hill; my V8 went right up, no loss of traction, and that's on 17" summer tires!! I've been having some fun in the TN ice; it's solid, like it was laid down in sheets. Now I know what you guys were talking about up north. I'm having to pass people down here. Joel '90 V8q '86 5kcstq