[Vwdiesel] Hydrogen power

[James Hansen]

But ya know Todd, that makes perfect sense in a twisted sort of way....
It's cheaper at present to use natural gas, but that's getting used up
quickly now with all the heavy oil upgraders and the tar sands at Fort
McMurray using it for a H2 source.
-James


-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Osterbrink [mailto:tosterbrink at verizon.net]
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 4:00 AM
To: James Hansen; vwdiesel at vwfans.com
Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] Hydrogen power


Maybe this hydrogen thing is being funded by the oil companies!  Look at the
profit potential...

One barrel of oil (correct if wrong) is about 33 gallons U.S. and I've read
with the current cracking technologies, out of one barrel 60% of it can be
cracked into gasoline.

So out of 33 gallons of oil you get about 19 gallons of gasoline.  I've also
read that they were going to convert gasoline into hydrogen, in which for
every gallon of gasoline they could get 1/4 gallon of hydrogen (that
included inefficiencies in conversion, and energy for the conversion
itself).  So doing math 19 X 0.25 = 4.75 gallons of hydrogen per barrel of
crude oil.  Hydrogen has lets say 1/3 the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline, so
19 gal of gas X 3 = 57 gal of hydrogen.  Then to find what the barrel
equivalent is take 57 gal H / 4.75 = 12 barrels of oil for the same energy
equivalent.

A barrel is about $55 U.S. X 12...
I'm not going there.  Have a day!  :-)






----- Original Message -----
From: "James Hansen" <jhsg at sasktel.net>
To: "VW-Diesel List" <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Vwdiesel] Hydrogen power


> Exactly Todd.
> The C=C bonds pack a lot of energy as compared to anything else with
> single
> bonds. Just comparing gasoline to alcohol, it takes twice the alcohol
> volume
> to run a gas engine, and alcohol seems volatile enough and all, but has
> significantly less energy.  Father-in-law returned from wintering in AZ
> and
> was quite impressed that the alcohol blend fuels are now available, and
> cheaper, and better according to the adverts, etc etc...  Apparently
> because
> the alcohol blend has a motor octane number one point higher, it is being
> proclaimed as having more power because it's more like a premium fuel
> blend.
> We discussed fuel for a while after that...
> Hydrogen with much less energy density requires a vehicle with a fueling
> stop every hour or so.  I can do better than that with a wood gas
> generator
> in the back of a 1950's mercury truck. For alternatives to what we
> currently
> have, it has to have an expense that is relative to the benefits, it has
> to
> be easy to accomplish within the existing framework, and use existing
> technology.
>
> For the hydrogen gang:
> Consider informing us clueless narrow-minded rednecks how this is
> overcome,
> as opposed to asserting it is simply better and if I don't understand it,
> I
> am incapable of such.  I find that attitude more insulting than if you
> started to call me names, well, that wouldn't bug me so much.
>
> I wonder:
>
> 1.  where does the energy come from to either electrolyze water or crack
> hydrogen from natural gas?
> 2.  How is this energy produced, and do these processes have any wastes,
> such as carbon and smoke emissions, and where does if go?
> 2-1/2. Does this technology currently exist in any form?
> 3.  Transportation of H2 is accomplished how, in bottles like I get mig
> gas
> in? (first hydrogen powered car I saw was a datsun in 1975 with a bottle
> in
> the trunk.) Trailers for this kind of high pressure gas are not cheap or
> big, and you have to pay hazard pay to the trucker in addition to regular
> rates.
> 4.  Infrastructure.  Many cars to refuel. Expensive to do so. It all needs
> to be built. how does it happen, who pays for it?
> 5.  On board fuel in a crash- what safety tanks are available?  Will you
> be
> able to find the accident sites of hydrogen cars from the crater and
> mushroom cloud?
>
>
> These are just a few off the top of my head. IF I actually thought about
> it
> at length, which I am incapable of it would seem from some of the
> discussion, (my narrow mind will simply not allow it), I could come up
> with
> more.  Failing that, I can always rely on Mr Shirley to fill in the gaps.
> :-)
>
>
> Incidentally...  I was thinking about the greasy algae posted yesterday on
> the biofuel link.  Dried, then
> powdered.  Diesel engines were originally designed to run on coal dust ya
> know.  Dried powdered 50% oily algae.  Now that has potential.  You can
> dump
> some city sewage in a lagoon, seed your algae, stand back while it grows,
> harvest, dry and powder it. Redesign the fuel system to either gasify it
> like a wood gas generator on the fly or add directly as dust.  Hell of an
> explosion out of dust.  I would think that would have more potential than
> hydrogen as long as the spenders of other people's money would not be
> involved in the design phase... that seems to f' up more stuff than not.
>
> waiting with interest...
>
> -James
>
>

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