[Vwdiesel] EPA things

[Tad]

James, I can explain how we got to replacing 300k machines rather than
retrofitting them at a tenth of the cost... it probably went something
like this:

Politician A: My constituents are upset about air quality.  I'd like
to pass a bill requiring decreased emissions from industrial machines.
Pol B: Sounds great!  Caterpillar is in my district and they'd love to
sell a lot of new machines!
Pol A: But we don't need new machines, we could offer incentives to
upgrade the existing machines at a fraction of the cost.
Pol B: Nope, I'm not going to support it unless it requires the
purchase of brand-new emissions-compliant machines.
Pol A: but then the company can turn around and sell the old machines
and they'll keep on polluting!
Pol B: How about we require the old machines to be destroyed.  That
way they can't be resold, can't keep polluting and won't depress the
market for new Caterpillars!

... sound about right? :)

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 4:49 PM, James Hansen <jhsg at sasktel.net> wrote:
> As long as it's only a little bit of venting Travis.  Keep up the good work,
> cause the more that people think, something good might come out of the giant
> cesspool that is the modern notion of green.  Take just diesel exhaust for
> instance.  I could take a really really efficient older 855 cummins, replace
> the injectors with more modern, and add a particulate, and urea nox filter,
> and it's tier 4 compliant if done right.  Only trouble with this scenario,
> is the add on package DOES NOT EXIST. Nothing has been done to address older
> stuff, nothing.  If the powers that be actually gave a rat's patootie about
> the environment, there would be a huge push for retrofit. But nada, I'm
> supposed to pop 350K for a new one, and throw the old one away,like it was
> disposable but we are talking about 2 and 300K$ pieces of iron, not some POS
> car.
> Same at the mine- why not retrofit an existing engine on a 500K machine
> rather than waste all that energy changing motors.... just silly.
>
> My pop's duramax is supposed to use 11 litres of fuel to burn off the
> particulate filter.  ELEVEN.  screw that, the whole pipe and garbeurator is
> sitting in the bush, with steel wool in both ends to keep out mice, so it
> goes back on when he trades it in.  Between a Banks exhaust and chip the
> truck went up 30% in economy, it doesn't smoke visibly, it's a grandpa's
> truck that pulls a 5th wheeler.
>
> Don't even get me started about the 92mpg VW Lupo that we had no hope of
> getting here, because of EPA regs. 92 mpg.  yeah, terrible for the
> environment that... or was it not allowed because Government Motors doesn't
> make one? But I'm not getting dragged into that discussion.... heh...
>
> -james
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com [mailto:vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com] On
> Behalf Of Travis Gottschalk
> Sent: January-31-12 4:38 PM
> To: vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] EPA things
>
>
> Funny thing is the Gov was giving grants out to replace your engines on your
> fleet if you could prove you needed/could use it at the coal mine. It seemed
> funny that you had to punch a hole in the block of the older engine to
> disable it. So basically you had to mine out the materials, ship parts from
> accross the world, have techs driving back and forth to figure out how to
> get it to work in your older machine all to save some fuel that just putting
> a couple upgrades on the old engine would have netted the same results
> (better turbos, injection system, intercooling, etc-same things we do to our
> VW's already).
>
> Then there is the particulate trap thing I don't fully understand. So if you
> don't drive faster then 45 (limited to 40 at the mine) you won't activate
> the regen process to clear this thing out. So you are dumping raw fuel
> through your engine to burn this trap out? How is that efficient? Then the
> added heat of the rest of the engine components to due all these emisions
> things (particulate trap is one heated thing that has to be close to the
> engine to get the heat best, EGR as well) so then you need to have a larger
> cooling system/fan to help prevent overheating robbing HP and MPG as well on
> the bigger machines. I always laugh when I read about the people that want
> to be fully "green" in their eyes. Do they know they would have to live in a
> cave (so no trees are harmed and make sure a bear/wolf isn't already living
> there so as to not disturb them either) and have to make there cloths out of
> hemp (unprocessed) and eat just berries and grass? Them just typing an email
> on their computer is going agaist there "green" things. Same as the new CA
> law that a certain percentage of new cars sold must be hybrid/battery
> operated. So you are telling me that a hybrid SUV getting 20MPG is better
> then my diesel car getting in the 50's MPG? And all that electricity isn't
> all that "green" either. And yes even natural gas has polution in some of
> the steps to get it to the power plant (think-local water issues, also some
> can start their water on fire). There-done venting a little bit
>
> Travis G
>> Oh, man, I know. Diesel makes the world go round, but gas drives those
> that
>> think the world revolves around them.
>>
>> To an end user (me for instance), it would seem that great pains have been
>> taken to improve air quality almost solely at the sacrifice of
> efficiency...
>> to the tune of about a 12 TO 25% increase in fuel usage moving from tier 2
>> to tier 3 compliance in ag engines. Pretty much the same for other on and
>> off road users with a wide variability in how the increased costs get
> passed
>> on. Now that we are in tier 4 transitional compliance, different
> technology
>> is being used (urea) which should bring fuel efficiency back up... maybe
> for
>> some anyway (not JD). But no matter how you look at it, efficiency is
>> certainly not high on the want list of the rule makers. Kind of like
>> natural selection, if you don't select for it, you don't get it, and
> nobody
>> in the north american engine market has been big on efficiency because it
>> all hangs on nitrogen emissions. Some players have a lot of European
>> exposure, which influences their engine design quite a bit it would seem.
>> (fiat group- case, NH, etc)
>>
>> Reasons vary, but mainly it was using EGR. It's like we are now replaying
>> the "smog rules" engines cars used in the 1970's in offroad engines. They
>> use EGR to keep the combustion chamber cool to not make NOX compounds, and
>> surprise surprise, you have to use more fuel to get the same power. I
>> distinctly remember the parents 1978 bronco that made a whopping 8mpg
>> IMPERIAL right out of the box. You could quite easily confuse the
>> speedometer with the gauge for the enormous fuel tank, both moved in
>> concert, but different directions.
>>
>> At least those that are now using urea cat in tier 4 engines are able to
>> bump timing and durations with high boost to get really hot combustion,
> hot
>> combustion chambers make more efficient power, it makes the particle trap
>> work better too, then fix the nox with a urea cat. Overall efficiency is
>> much much higher. Guys that I know that have bought the 350K new tractor
>> are quite happy with them- they HAD to get rid of the fuel guzzler tier 3
>> junk that it replaced. A big acre farmer can make a tractor payment on the
>> difference in fuel use between tier 3 and 4 transitional engines.
>>
>> I wonder Travis, since the EPA has been used as a trade manipulator for so
>> long with air quality being the saw, if they would know what is good for
> the
>> environment even if it jumped up and bit them in the ass. Personally, I
> kind
>> of doubt it, it's still more enviropolitics than good intelligent use of
>> resources in some kind of sustainable manner.
>> -james
>
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