[Vwdiesel] starter issue in Diesel Vanagon

[James Hansen]

Just by way of reassurance Bryan, if the motor turns over by hand, and the
starter clunks like it's going in, but no whirry turny stuff, then the
current isn't getting to the starter motor.  Inside the solenoid itself,
which is just a big ass relay, there is a floating copper disc on the end of
the core that gets pulled in by the solenoid magnet.  This disc is the
contact closure that completes the circuit contacts at the solenoid end, and
when starter solenoids are on their way out, can be a real hair puller.
Since the disc rotates, it will be on a good part, then on a not good part,
working today, not working tomorrow, working if you try many many times...
working on the bench, but not when position changes, etc.
Never discount a locked up engine either.  Mice can carry seeds to fill a
cylinder overnight- (btdt) through the exhaust pipe, a good quart of wheat
seeds in two cylinders. Fuel can dribble in and hydraulic lock the thing
(which is why it was recommended to turn it over backwards- pushes the
liquid out an exhaust valve if it's there. It's just part of that diagnosis
chain thing, you make sure the heart is beating before worrying over the
sprained ankle.

It's most likely the starter solenoid, and if you can just replace that
would be the cheapest route. I can't remember if you can get the vw
solenoids apart easily or not to examine them.  Old tractor stuff is pretty
straightforward, but Bosch can sometimes be ignorant about stuff like that.
Oh, and Sandy's comment about permanent magnet motors is dead on- I've glued
lots of magnets back on to repair the electric motors when new ones weren't
easily available (or cheap). When that occurs, usually if you are persistent
you can get them to release some smoke for you to ease diagnosis and
guarantee the need of a new one. Last one was a stupid ford windshield wiper
motor that is no longer available in a truck I have. Moisture is the main
culprit in that deal- rust gets behind the glue holding the magnet, and it
swells until the glue fails.
-james

-----Original Message-----
From: vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com [mailto:vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com] On
Behalf Of Bryan Belman
Sent: June-11-12 8:08 AM
To: Sandy Cameron; vwdiesel at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] starter issue in Diesel Vanagon

yeap, most likely going to have to get another starter, but I was hoping the
starter repair place could have told me this, that is why I gave it to
them.  I am sure they bench tested it and it worked fine before giving it
back to me??
I am sure it will work on the bench after I take it out this evening, but in
the van it is not working???? arggg.  thanks Sandy.  If you want to send me
the stuff you have on the internal workings of the VW starter, I will read
it over, thanks.
 

Bryan Belman, Pt. Pleasant, NJ
04 Jetta Wagon TDI PD, 100hp, 5sp -- running :<)
92 Jetta 1.6 Eco-Turbo Diesel, 5sp -- running :<)
82 Diesel Westy 1.9NA -- running :<)
70 Type 1 stock Elm Green Beetle -- Under Restoration :-)

From: Sandy Cameron <scameron at storm.ca>
To: Bryan Belman <dieselwesty at yahoo.com>; vwdiesel at audifans.com
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] starter issue in Diesel Vanagon

Did you try running it on the bench?

OLD PM starters sometimes develop magnet problems.

I had one on a mercury outboard (same kind of internal ceramic magnets)
where the magnets started to disintegrate, and along with loosing their
magnetisim, started to come apart and eventually jammed the rotor.

I've never seen a vanagon setup naked, so don't know how that starter is
built. The car starters have a planetary gearset inside the motor caged in
that infernal white plastic the Germans love so much.

All plastics continue to outgas their softeners over the years and grow
brittle, and eventually crumble. Yours may have grenaded and jammed the
armature inside. 

If your engine is not locked, bench run ( jog) the starter to prove it's
actually trying to turn.

The fact that your solenoid slams in strongly shows the current is passing
thru the motor, brushes, etc, which is how the solenoid gets it's pull-in
current. 

I have a description of the 1.6 diesel car starter, and dismantle/assemble
instructions I can send if you need it.

Sandy
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