[Vwdiesel] starter issue in Diesel Vanagon

[Andrew .Libby]

James, I thought he said the repair place replaced the solenoid.

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 8:33 AM, James Hansen <jhsg at sasktel.net> wrote:

> Just by way of reassurance Bryan, if the motor turns over by hand, and the
> starter clunks like it's going in, but no whirry turny stuff, then the
> current isn't getting to the starter motor.  Inside the solenoid itself,
> which is just a big ass relay, there is a floating copper disc on the end
> of
> the core that gets pulled in by the solenoid magnet.  This disc is the
> contact closure that completes the circuit contacts at the solenoid end,
> and
> when starter solenoids are on their way out, can be a real hair puller.
> Since the disc rotates, it will be on a good part, then on a not good part,
> working today, not working tomorrow, working if you try many many times...
> working on the bench, but not when position changes, etc.
> Never discount a locked up engine either.  Mice can carry seeds to fill a
> cylinder overnight- (btdt) through the exhaust pipe, a good quart of wheat
> seeds in two cylinders. Fuel can dribble in and hydraulic lock the thing
> (which is why it was recommended to turn it over backwards- pushes the
> liquid out an exhaust valve if it's there. It's just part of that diagnosis
> chain thing, you make sure the heart is beating before worrying over the
> sprained ankle.
>
> It's most likely the starter solenoid, and if you can just replace that
> would be the cheapest route. I can't remember if you can get the vw
> solenoids apart easily or not to examine them.  Old tractor stuff is pretty
> straightforward, but Bosch can sometimes be ignorant about stuff like that.
> Oh, and Sandy's comment about permanent magnet motors is dead on- I've
> glued
> lots of magnets back on to repair the electric motors when new ones weren't
> easily available (or cheap). When that occurs, usually if you are
> persistent
> you can get them to release some smoke for you to ease diagnosis and
> guarantee the need of a new one. Last one was a stupid ford windshield
> wiper
> motor that is no longer available in a truck I have. Moisture is the main
> culprit in that deal- rust gets behind the glue holding the magnet, and it
> swells until the glue fails.
> -james
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com [mailto:vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com] On
> Behalf Of Bryan Belman
> Sent: June-11-12 8:08 AM
> To: Sandy Cameron; vwdiesel at audifans.com
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] starter issue in Diesel Vanagon
>
> yeap, most likely going to have to get another starter, but I was hoping
> the
> starter repair place could have told me this, that is why I gave it to
> them.  I am sure they bench tested it and it worked fine before giving it
> back to me??
> I am sure it will work on the bench after I take it out this evening, but
> in
> the van it is not working???? arggg.  thanks Sandy.  If you want to send me
> the stuff you have on the internal workings of the VW starter, I will read
> it over, thanks.
>
>
> Bryan Belman, Pt. Pleasant, NJ
> 04 Jetta Wagon TDI PD, 100hp, 5sp -- running :<)
> 92 Jetta 1.6 Eco-Turbo Diesel, 5sp -- running :<)
> 82 Diesel Westy 1.9NA -- running :<)
> 70 Type 1 stock Elm Green Beetle -- Under Restoration :-)
>
> From: Sandy Cameron <scameron at storm.ca>
> To: Bryan Belman <dieselwesty at yahoo.com>; vwdiesel at audifans.com
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] starter issue in Diesel Vanagon
>
> Did you try running it on the bench?
>
> OLD PM starters sometimes develop magnet problems.
>
> I had one on a mercury outboard (same kind of internal ceramic magnets)
> where the magnets started to disintegrate, and along with loosing their
> magnetisim, started to come apart and eventually jammed the rotor.
>
> I've never seen a vanagon setup naked, so don't know how that starter is
> built. The car starters have a planetary gearset inside the motor caged in
> that infernal white plastic the Germans love so much.
>
> All plastics continue to outgas their softeners over the years and grow
> brittle, and eventually crumble. Yours may have grenaded and jammed the
> armature inside.
>
> If your engine is not locked, bench run ( jog) the starter to prove it's
> actually trying to turn.
>
> The fact that your solenoid slams in strongly shows the current is passing
> thru the motor, brushes, etc, which is how the solenoid gets it's pull-in
> current.
>
> I have a description of the 1.6 diesel car starter, and dismantle/assemble
> instructions I can send if you need it.
>
> Sandy
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