[Vwdiesel] fuel use
Val Christian
val at mongo.mongobird.com
Wed Jan 9 10:20:36 PST 2013
James, in general I agree with your observations. There are a couple of
nuances:
1. TDIs with heated seats will create more engine heat from running the
alternator, but for the seats and for the coolant heaters.
2. IDIs, if the provide more heat, probably only do so because they are
a bit less efficient than the TDIs, particularly at idle.
Most of my cold weather experience was in 77 and 78, with A1 rabbit.
The front of the car was flat, and inserting cardboard was easy.
Also, the TDI filter can ice up, and the IDI filter will ice up. If you have
a newer IDI, they have more ducting from the front, reducing filter clogging,
but it still happens. If you have a IDI with a short tube on the air filter
housing, you will ice up, just a matter of time, and blowing snow.
The tough part at -40F is keeping things running. My first cold night was
about -45F near Saranac Lake. The battery was kept indoors overnight,
and I used a propane torch to preheat the oil sump. (No synthetic oil
in my cars in 77.) We found it helpful to use a piece of aircraft scat
with a 1 3/4" tin end, and a propane torch, coupled to the air intake.
The routine went like this: preheat oil sump (also used gas camping
cooker), put battery in car, start torch in scat tubing when glow plug
cycle is about 1/2 done. Crank as soon as glow plug light goes out, with
torch running. Usually required some extended cranking with only 1 or 2
cylinders running to get a good start.
When I knew the night temps were below -30F, I just used 50% #1 (kerosine).
Never used gasoline. Used cloud point depressors all the time in the cold.
Back then the diesel fuel commercially available was crap. It is much better
today.
Around -45F you can get some waxing of the filter, even with all the
precautions. Prist could be used, but in the early years I did not have
it. Hence the spare filter. A vac pump is a good idea.
Thanks to AL Gore, the winters are warmer, and thanks to getting married,
I don't go running off with my buddies doing stupid things for recreation.
So my experience with TDIs is not as extensive as James'.
>
> I've been in the very cold. After -40, there is no cabin heat in a (insert
> diesel Vw model number here) car. Worst temp I've been in with my long
> since past A1 1.6 na jetta was -50. At that temp, you can keep a smallish
> circle about the size of two basketballs clear on the windshield, defrost on
> full, fan no higher than 2. On setting 3 the incoming air appears to be
> indistinguishable from cold air, and is ineffectual at warming the cabin,
> you wear what you wore outside. On fan setting 2 the icicles no longer form
> on your moustache. Now this was driving 100km/h cardboard flat against the
> rad core with one inch of exposed core to the wind. Pulling off the highway
> is dramatic. As long as it takes to read to here from the beginning, the
> temp gauge needle is almost at cold, and you'd swear that what seemed to be
> no heat to begin with blowing on your face, gets much much colder, and you
> start thinking in terms of cabin wind chill factors. My fuel started
> gelling at this temp, thinned it with kerosene, could have used gasoline at
> that temp just as well. When I got out of the car to check if it was
> gelling or the magic beans were falling out, I was wearing clothing I had
> skiied in at -35. I thought it warm. All the gore-tex wind barrier, polartec
> enormofleece, felt pac boots, you name it, I felt Like I stepped out in
> winter naked except for wearing a bread bag, which would explain all the odd
> crackling and rustling when I moved. The breeze generated by walking was
> enough wind chill that the front side of my legs was astonishingly colder.
> I have never been past -50 since, but man it's cold, makes -40 seem warm.
> I've always been a ski at any weather type guy, go sledding at -35, etc....
> NOTHING prepared me for below -50. You can't even take a deep breath
> without coughing, and you can feel your chest getting cold from it. The
> only part of my body that was toasty warm was my head, because I had a
> siberian trooper fur earflap hat on that I wear skiing. Fur is just fine
> thank you. I encouraged my wife to buy a practical sheepskin fur coat to
> wear for everyday in winter as a result of my cold weather experience, and
> complete lack of faith in conventional outdoor "cold weather" gear.
>
> At -40, the A2 could just keep the windshield completely clear, but just
> barely. Again, pull of the road, the needle crashes, and you have very
> little heat. the heater core can remove more heat than the engine can make.
>
> Parked, you have nothing formal for heat at -40. At -30 the car stays just
> warm, but you better have your lined coveralls on over everything else if
> you plan on sitting. That's why I have all this water heating stuff- warm
> drinks help, and give you something to do. They also keep you hydrated so
> your metabolism can give it hell with no restriction. -20 is nothing, we
> put our sandals back on at those temps, and catch some rays to get the
> vitamin D stocks back up.
>
> That's why my road kit has a thin tarp, to wrap around the front of the car,
> enclose the engine bay, rad, grill, and as far back on the fenders as I can
> get, the rest gets snow from my take apart shovel I have in my ski pack. I
> would bank snow around the car, to the rear wheels, then throw snow under
> the car to close off the back, so exhaust gets away, but the engine heat is
> trapped under the passenger space. I too, have propane- a couple bottles
> usually like you'd use on a portable barbecue, and the smallest screw on
> portable propane lantern that coleman makes. Makes substantial supplemental
> heat, and doubles as an emergency trouble light, that you can warm fingers
> on when putting a fan belt back on after pounding drifts knocked the alt
> belt off your A2. BTDT. It will also run all night on one bottle on low, and
> make more interior cabin heat than the car. Just have to remember to have
> breathable air, and to light the thing before the propane has insufficient
> vapor pressure to run the lantern.
>
> Hope this warms your hearts.
> -james
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com [mailto:vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com] On
> Behalf Of Tad
> Sent: January-08-13 6:23 PM
> To: Val Christian
> Cc: mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] fuel use
>
> Wow, I have to say that this convo makes me glad to live in a place where it
> never gets anywhere near 0F, and anything south of +20 is considered "real
> effin cold".
>
> A few other thoughts:
>
> - I wonder if an IDI or TDI would make more cabin heat in extreme cold.
> On the one hand, it seems like the IDI would have more surface area
> (from
> the prechamber) to transmit combustion heat into the head that the TDI
> would presumably send out the pipe. On the other hand, TDIs have gizmos
> like the EGR cooler and coolant glow plugs.
> - TDIs have a fine "snow screen" in the intake pipe (hidden in the
> fender), designed to prevent the filter clogging with fine snow, although
> it mainly seems to get clogged up with dead bugs and leaves(so many
> people
> cut it out). It's bypassed by a springloaded door that opens up under
> heavy suction.
> - I don't see the benefit of carrying a *full* filter... I've done a
> parking lot filter change with nothing but a pair of pliers, screwdriver
> and length of fuel hose (which I attached to the filter outlet and sucked
> on to prime the filter from the tank).
> - You folks from arctic climates, when you talk about the car losing
> temp from just running the heater, is that with the cabin air set to
> fresh
> or recirc?
> - On a diesel, you shouldn't have to worry about Carbon Monoxide
> poisoning (blue fingernails) in a snowbound car.
> - It's interesting how various states approach tire chain enforcement
> very differently. Here in Oregon, having driven over Mt. Hood,
> Willamette
> pass, and the Siskyous many times, I've never once seen any sign of
> enforcement when chains are "required". In California, they set up a
> roadblock and check you before you can even get on the highway.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Val Christian
> <val at mongo.mongobird.com>wrote:
>
> > One other thing, at 0F, a TDI at idle will not heat the car long term.
> > If sunny, it may. If sunny and still air, it will. You will need
> > more than just idle, and as the engine gets cold the coolant plugs fire
> up.
> >
> > An IDI will not keep the car warm at -10F at idle, with the blower on low.
> > If you pull the cold start (timing advance and throttle increase) out,
> > it may. I have used cardboard folded to shim the stop on the IP to
> > bump up the "idle" when in cold temps. My IDIs were all non-turbo and
> > a turbo might be different, but I doubt it.
> >
> > Also if in a storm be aware of ingestion of powered snow, which can
> > clog the air intake and potentially suck oil, especially on a 1.5l.
> >
> > A possible approach to the filter matter would be to temporarily
> > remove the filter. There is normally not much silica in blown snow.
> >
> > I would also have a cut out milk jug or a shovel, because you will
> > want to keep the exhaust free. In Watertown NY snowstorms, that can
> > become nearly fulltime work.
> >
> > If your fingernails and lips are blue, get out of the car...
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > HI Folks;
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any Idea how much fuel per hour a
> > > 1.6 diesel would use at a continuous idle? Just wondering how long I
> > > could
> > run
> > > the heater if I was stuck in a snow bank in a blizzard. I have to
> > > cross a mountain pass every other weekend from now thru March
> > > including a trip
> > from
> > > Western Washington to Georgia the middle of February.
> > >
> > > Brian Decker
> > >
> > > 1990 VW Fox 2 dr wagon with 1.6 turbo diesel
> > >
> > > 1983 Mitsubishi Mighty Max 2.3 turbo diesel 4/4 pickup
> > >
> > > 1981 Dasher wagon 1.6 N/A, 5spd
> > >
> > > 2 Rabbit pickups one diesel and one gas
> > >
> > > My wife runs a 1983 VW Rabbit GTI
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Vwdiesel mailing list
> > > Vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> > > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/vwdiesel
> > >
> >
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