[Vwdiesel] Water pump not pumping

[lbaird119 at aol.com]

NA Diesel so try pushing on the air filter cover/intake.  See if that gets rid of the noise.  Often a rattle-ish noise from the intake, is loose clamps on the intake cover piece.  Pushing it in is a test for it and if it helps then get some pliers and put a little more arch into the clamps.
    Loren



-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Lane <eriklane at gmail.com>
To: vwdiesel <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
Sent: Sun, Mar 9, 2014 9:30 pm
Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] Water pump not pumping


So, to follow up on this:
I took the head off. There was too much soot in the coolant, and just too
uch pointing to the need to at least get a look.
I had great results! Even with the high miles, there wasn't a ridge in the
ylinders. My finger could almost tell a difference, so maybe a few
housandths, but nothing major. There was some white residue on the pistons
nd valves in a couple of the cylinders. Block and head were both flat with
o warping.
I replaced the head gasket, along with the timing belt/tensioner and other
inor things. I've had it running for a couple weeks now, and it's doing
reat! The heater puts out more heat than ever, and the engine temps are
ack where they were for years, and holding very steady. It's been running
arm for 3-4 years now, and I changed the thermostat a couple times
hinking I had a bad one.
Only down-side is now that I replaced my dirty air filter there's a bit of
xtra rattle coming out the intake. If I hold my hand near the opening, it
oes away. Not too long before this I finally tore out the foam stuff on
he hood because it was soaked in oil. I finally got sick of it. I think
hat if it had been gone before I would have heard this, and it's not
bnormal, but I'm not completely sure. I'm thinking about putting a large
adiator hose over the intake to act as a baffle and see how it does. It's
ust enough of a rattle that I'd like to get rid of it. It's only at
ertain rpms, when it echos just right, I think. Over the entire rpm range,
t probably rattles for 1/3 or less of it.
Anyway, thanks everyone for the input! I just wanted to come back to report
he results, now that it's done.
rik

n Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 6:23 AM, Val Christian <val at mongo.mongobird.com>wrote:
> Just a comment...I have put allot of miles on the 1.5 and 1.6 NA engines,
 and my experience is that I did allot of cylinder head gaskets.  I am not
 sure why.  I had one thermostat failure which took out a 1.6 NA head
 gasket,
 and the 1.5 NA seemed to need new head gaskets, probably one per car,
 every 200k miles (just a wild guess, not intended as a predictive number).
 I also found out that the valve seats tended to pound in on the 1.5 more
 than with any other engine I have experience with.  Perhaps the higher RPM
 they had to be run at to do 70 to 80 MPH.

 THe blackness would make me really suspicious of at least an intermittent
 or small leak.

 Here's a question to the group: Has anyone used a MityVac to pump down the
 cooling system, and extract gas (air) from the system, when filling or
 doing diagnostic testing?

 I haven't tried that yet, but it should work by expanding the gas so that
 it
 works it's way to the overflow bottle.  When the system recompresses to
 atm, then the volume of the gas is reduced, but it is in the overflow at
 that point.  I lack a large cork or modified cap, or I would have
 tried this already.

 In Erik's case, I would try such a pump down to eliminate gases, and then
 run an unpressurized cooling system and see if gasses reoccur, and are
 vented.  A latex glove over the overflow will give you an idea of
 outflow, and with a leaky head, the outflow is usually greater with a
 cold engine (in my experience with 1.5 and 1.6 NA VW diesels).

 If there is a head gasket breech, then there will be pockets of gas
 in the head which will locally compromise cooling, and can cause the
 symptoms you are seeing.  The only reliable way I know of to resolve
 that is with a head pull.  Some people have forgone the complete head
 pull and just slip in a gasket, and I even did that once.  But pulling
 the head, looking for cracks, perhaps having it pressure tested and
 servicing the valves and seats might be indicated.  If you do that,
 you can move forward with confidence in your head for a while.

 Erik, when you are all done, a plastic in-line fuel filter in your
 overflow return line might help get rid of some, but not all the junk
 you may end up accumulating.  I wouldn't keep the filter in forever,
 and for my driving, I would remove it after 4k or so.



 >
 >
 >   Ok, you've checked if the impeller is loose on the shaft and it's not.
  So, it has to pump so long as it's a real impeller.  Someone on the list
 once had an impeller that was a square with bent over corners, that had
 rusted off...  Not much of an impeller to start with.
 >   Next is if you have an air bubble.  Easy to do if you don't fill it
 "correctly."  Pull the top radiator hose off from the radiator.  Fill the
 engine and radiator, through the top hose, going into the engine.  Once
 coolant starts to run out (bend the hose up to fill) then quickly connect
 the hose then finish filling through the reservoir.  Start the car and warm
 it up.  First watch the coolant return flow, into the top of the reservoir.
  You should have a solid, steady stream, at fast idle, once a few bubbles
 clear out.  If that's good, then put on the cap and finish warming up the
 engine.
 >   Once the thermostat opens, you can shut it down, wait a few minutes
 and top off.  Once again check your return stream.  A slight blurp of air
 now and again isn't perfect bur not unusual.  Constant air is a problem.  A
 leaking head gasket will put out a pretty steady stream of bubbles.  A
 blown one generally blows coolant out of the reservoir, IF it'll run at all.
 >   Be sure to turn the heater to hot at first (to chase out any air) then
 to cold while you warm it up (it'll warm up faster).  After topping off,
 check that all is working.   If you suspect a blown head gasket, try the
 heater as you drive.  If it loses heat then stop and loosen the cap
 slightly.  If you get excessive pressure, (but didn't have bubbles) then
 you likely have a bad cap.  With the cap slightly loosened, see if heater
 function and more or less, normality returns.
 >      Loren
 >
 >
 >
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Erik Lane <eriklane at gmail.com>
 > To: vwdiesel <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
 > Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 11:16 am
 > Subject: [Vwdiesel] Water pump not pumping
 >
 >
 > Hello all,
 > I'm looking for some ideas. I've run out, at least for the moment. This
 is
 > n a 1981 Jetta with a 1.6NA diesel. No modifications to the system - I
 > ust replace parts when they wear out with the stock replacements.
 > Driving home from work one day, that also happened to be about the
 coldest
 > ay around here, I had no heat and the temperature gauge was getting
 > ncomfortably high as I was getting close to home. I was worried that I
 had
 > ost all my coolant or something, but I was close enough to home and it
 was
 > ising slowly enough that I was able to make it without getting anything
 > nto danger zones. (Plus it was cold and snowing with no good spot to
 leave
 > t.) Though I live near Portland, OR, so our cold is not like most of you.
 > t was probably mid 20s.
 > I got home and checked it, and it was full of coolant. After puzzling
 over
 > t and letting it cool I took everything apart, thinking that maybe the
 > mpeller had come off the shaft. That wasn't the case, and even using
 those
 > ubber band strap wrenches to get a really good grip, I couldn't budge it.
 >  tried tapping with a punch and hammer to see if the impeller would move
 > t all on the shaft in or out, and it wouldn't.
 > I replaced the thermostat, cause I had one on the shelf, and it seemed
 like
 >  long shot, but I was running out of ideas. I drove it around a bit after
 > utting it back together, and it acted up again. I looked at it, and the
 > oolant bottle was completely full, but it still hadn't even sucked down
 > ny coolant into the radiator. In the past I've always been able to fill
 > hese cars by only putting coolant in the fill bottle and running the
 > ngine a bit to pump it around the system.
 > I've got it apart again, and I've put the exhaust from a shop vac up to
 the
 > ole in the block to see if there were any restrictions, and coolant came
 > hooting out of every hose that I had open. When I go to drain the system,
 >  open all three hoses down at the water pump, and water comes out of them
 > ust fine. I also have an inline tee in the hose to the heater core that a
 > revious owner installed - it's one of those that comes with a radiator
 > lush kit and has a screw on cap to be able to purge the system. So using
 > hat I know that I have water to the heater core.
 > I've stood there and watched while the engine was running, and the water
 > ump spun just fine. (Well, the system was full of coolant, so I only know
 > hat the pulley was spinning. I wasn't directly watching the impeller.) I
 > evved it up, and there was no hesitation or slipping of the pulley.
 > I've read an idea about a hose collapsing on the input side of the pump
 and
 > estricting the flow, but since there are three of them, I find it hard to
 > elieve that they would all fail at the same time.
 > My dad has suggested a head gasket failure and air lock that is stopping
 it
 > rom pumping, which seems possible, but I want to remove all other
 credible
 > ossibilities before removing the head. I've also dealt with a couple of
 > hese before that had blown head gaskets, and I've never had one stop
 > umping like this.
 > The coolant that came out was pretty ugly black, but not oily. So that
 > ould seem to give some credibility to a head gasket. I've never noticed
 it
 > ook anything other than green before, but it's been so reliable that I
 > aven't had to mess with it much lately.
 > So I think that's all the relevant facts. I'm hoping to learn/benefit
 from
 > he combined experience and knowledge of this list. I'm kind of at my wits
 > nd, and with this engine having unknown miles, but I suspect in the
 > allpark of 400k, I might get in there and decide it needs to be rebuilt.
 > ith where I am in my life right now, it would be best to be able to wait
 6
 > onths or a year before having to tackle such a big job. So even if I open
 > t up, I'm going to want to do the bare minimum to get by until I have the
 > ime to really do it right, if it gets to that.
 > Thank you everyone!
 > rik
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