Re: Watch out Bart... was Re: SS brake lines

["Barton P. Chambers" <bartonc@infi.net>]

Hi Eric, Peter, Garydon, Fellow Q-heads

> Better put on your nomex Bart:

Well, that sounds like a good plan, but it sounds like I better don the ol' hair
shirt first.  (umgph, tug tug, ...grunt...)  (pull, don, jwiggle, grunt, umpgh)

> First Unka Bart said:
> 
> >1)  Catastrophic failure of the brakes on a car is apt to be just that.
 
> Yup, Happens with rubber lines also

> >2)  Failure of a brake line *will* result in Catastrophic failure of the 
> brakes,

> Yup
 
> >3)  Brake lines hidden inside shinny metal sheathing cannot be inspected.
 
> No, but that Shinny metal sheath usually has to be abraded through 
> >before< that Teflon hose fails  ^^^^^^^

Ahhhh... there's the *rub* (he said with a wicked grin).  Personally, I usually
don't like to take my cars airborne in excess of 145 and do long endos with 'em,
simply because folks usually don't live to tell about it afterwards.  Now, I 
don't want to hurt any feelings of any of you racers who are wiser, and more 
knowing about this than I, so you are quite free to conclude from the fact that 
I have done both, it's a good idea to emulate.  I still usually don't recommend 
it...

You, of course, are free to believe that since brake-lines usually don't fail 
before abrading the shinny coverings, there's usually no danger.  

You might be interested to know that (elsewhere), there's been considerable 
traffic from folks who contend that their experience has been quite different 
from yours.  Occasionally.

> >4)  Brake lines hidden inside shinny metal sheathing *do* occasionally fail.
> 
> see above.

Excellent advice, Thanks!

> >The remainder of this derivation is left as an exercise for the student, 
> >but the unanimous wisdom on Porschephiles 
> 
> Owning a Porsche DOES NOT mean that you know whats going on.  

What?  You mean *something's* going on?  Why the hell didn't someone tell me,. 
fer chrisssake...?  Jeez, why do I always hafta be the last one to get the 
word???

> >(where one or two serious racers reside) 
> 
> The Quattro List also has it's fair share of serious racers.  PDQSHIP 
> (Scott) Has raced Pro rally, Showroom Stock and Solo I/II.  I currently 
> hold a IMSA, FIA, SCCA, and SVRA license, Teach for Skip Barber Racing 
> and the Qclub, Engineer and function as test driver on a Trans-Am car, 
> and will be testing a Touring call this September at Road Atlanta.  
> Graydon Stuckey Races and Engineers, AUDIDUDI is building 2 Race cars, 
> This is only a few of "our" racers.

Whoa, Eric!  Go easy on that "touchy juice, willya?  Yer Freakin' here!!
Yer Kindly ol' Unka Bart is one of "our" boys too!  Merely attempting to warn 
folks that use of a certain product that, by dint of regular inspection 
replacement, is safe on the race track, and not a good idea (onc catastrophic
brake failure is usually enough to be non-habitforming) on the street hardly 
seems worthy of breaking out the napalm (occasionally, maybe; but not 
..usually)

> >is  that these things are great for the track, but *NEVER* to be used on the 
> >street. Track toys get torn down regularly, and these lines get replaced 
> regularly.
> 
> Not nearly as regularly as you would think.

There you go again, accusing Yer Kindly ol' Unka Bart of *thinking*...

> Then Graydon said what I was about to say:
 
> >	The question about reliability is valid, but they are generally 
> >not too bad if you pay attention to your car like you should.

Now let me see if I follow this argument here:  we agree that catastrophic brake
failure is occasionally non-habitforming, ne?  I infer that we agree that these 
lines *can* occasionally fail under the shiny lining, don't we...?  Now if it 
*can* fail (even if it usually doesn't)... OK, I've got it... 

(sigh...) I guess Yer Kindly ol' Unka Bart's just a clueless old fart who thinks
being able to stop whenever he applies the brakes, as opposed to occasionaly, is
of moderate importance. 

(somehow the  old "YMMV" sneaks into my alleged mind, although I guess I don't 
know what's doing on...)

> When was the last time you looked at your brake lines to see if the 
> rubber was soft or abraded.

Every 3000 miies, when I change the oil.  I usually regard maintaining the 
brakes to be a semi-serious part of my regular program of life-prolonging 
activities.  Ha 'bout 'chew?

> That liquid gold that we put in our power steering system EATS rubber 
> like you would'nt belive.
> 
> >	If GM decided to use SS lines, they would do the necessary 
> >testing to get them DOT approved.  The point is, the SS lines are far too 
> >expensive to be installed on a mass-produced car.  That is why the 
> >manufacturers don't use them.

Hmmmm... IF Yer Kindly ol' Unka Bart didn't think it was important to be able to
stop when he applied the brakes...
 
> Thank you Graydon.

Yer Kindly ol' Unka Bart thanks you both!  And offers you both a handfull of 
them little blue jobbies (Trust me...)

(evil sig surpressed to avoid offending certain of our touchy brethern who will 
not be named (Eric).)