Re: then's the breaks....

[Dave Eaton <dave.eaton@minedu.govt.nz>]

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:09:38 EDT
>From: QSHIPQ@aol.com
>
>Dave writes:
>>the thing to remember is that, in retrospect, all brakes are/were poor,
>because
>>the design and performance has improved markedly over the years.  i know of
>no
>>audi or bmw whose brakes stand comparison against the competition today. 
>>except perhaps the sport quattro and the 2nd m5...

[snip]
>be something new.  Putting great brakes on production cars might be.

sounds like agreement to me...
>
>>questions to ask yourself:
>>1) how many panic stops from 70mph am i planning to do?
>>2) how many panic stops 70mph-0 will i do *in sequence*
>>most of us answer question #1 with "none hopefully, but 1 when the need
>>arises".  therfore the 70-0 numbers are key.  *not* the fade characteristics.
>
>In YOUR humble opinion.  Brake fade IS a benchmark number.  Panic stops?  How
>bout just good and consistent stops at all speeds?  Comparing 993tt brakes to
>others that are initially "within 10feet" are posted on the Ultimate web site
>( and a lister quoted it here).  That 10feet difference exponentially
>increases as the number of brake applications increases.  Predictability of a

i wonder if that is a subtle reference to moi?  if so, i quoted the 993, not
the 993tt...

aywya, you miss the point. in normal driving, fade is not the problem.  braking
distances are.  you address that with pads and maintenance.

>cars dynamics is key, brakes are no different than the torsen center.  Not
>knowing when the pedal will go to the floor, or having to think about how many
>times you put the G60's on bind mode, is not something most want to think
>about.  This isn't "panic" braking either, not if you've been stuck in Chicago
>rush hour.  OR to those posting brake upgrades right here on the list.

do you expect me to take this comment seriously?  sorry, but g60's in my
experience do *not* fade in rush hour traffic.  nor do they "go to the floor". 
either you should do some brake maintenance, or learn to drive appropriately
for the conditions.  

>
>>most of us answer question #2 with "none".  unless you're being bl**dy stupid
>>on the road, or you're on the track.  if you're on the track, then you need
>to
>>worry about both braking distance and fade characteristics.
>>if you're on the track, upgrade your brakes.  they're never "good enough".
>>and, i dare say, there are a number of "vendors" on the list....
>
[snip]
>
>New concept?  Revolutionary?  Panic?  Nope, simpler than that.
>
>Appreciate your thoughts Dave, we certainly disagree on the importance of
>fade.  How 'bout offering up some solutions on braking to those that disagree
>with you.  There are a few.  Punting fade is hardly an answer.  If you don't
>have any fine.  Then let's let those that do have some answers, share their
>experiences.
>
>
>Scott Justusson
>

my main points are:

1) most people do no maintenance on their brakes and don't notice the
performance drop-off.

2) tyres and pads (not to mention shocks) are the most important and
cost/effective upgrade for the major braking problem most of us will face - a
single panic stop.

3) if you expect (and demand) repeated heavy use on the road you're a danger to
yourself and others and you should be committed.  for repeated heavy use on the
track, upgrade your brakes and put up with the on-road compromises.

for example:
the 200kgs difference between my old s2 w/g60's, and the ur-q w/g60's made a
ton of difference in the fade characteristics when driving really hard.  the
g60's weren't up to it in the s2 application.  then i changed pads and had the
rotors trimmed.  major difference.  you still noticed the 200kgs (in more ways
than one), but the brakes were much better.

same with the rs2.  pedal getting a little long, changed the pads and pad
dampers.  presto, back to normal service.

when i take the truck to the track, will the brakes me enough for me?  no way
in hell.  i'd look for ci c/c brakes and smoke everyone with 4g stops (tyres
notwithstanding).

$0.02
dave
'95 rs2
'90 ur-q