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Re: Chevy speak (long)
In a message dated 98-09-21 21:43:38 EDT, you write:
> Wait a minute there...how familiar are you with Porsches and the parts
> market? The nice thing about the 911 motor is that you can buy crank cases
>and cylinders separately from countless sources, and rather reasonably if
>you know where to look. What exactly do you mean by "blew the motor"??
>There are TONS of 911 crank cases and cylinders out there, so finding parts
> reasonably, REALLY isn't a big deal if you know where to look. It would be
> stupid to go to a dealer to buy an engine, when there are gobs of engine
>builders out there, that can build an engine for MUCH less than the dealer
> gets for one (let alone the fact that there are a significant number of
> rebuilt engines for sale). You're going to find that it's much easier to
> change out a cylinder on a 911, if one cracks, then fixing your chevy block
>if you punch a hole through the cylinder wall...I've already punched a BIG
> hole through the block in my Suburban, so don't even go there =).
Mark, you miss the point. Maybe a contrast compare between a built porsche 6
vs a built or even stock LT1/LS1/LT5. We don't need to go to the dealer here.
For the same or less money than an engine builder, you can have 325hp out of
the box, and 500hp+ with less than 5000USD, installed. A viable alternative?
You bet it is. In ALL respects, performance, price, reliablility and
availability.
>One minor detail...unlike Audi's, Porsches actually HAVE resale value. What
>a concept! =)
You miss the point again. If a guy rebuilt his P-6, he spent money (and we
aren't necessarily talking of a DIY project here), big money. That money
comes OFF resale, whether you look at it from a number mismatch or from just
straight forward accounting (we could contrast compare Porsche mechanics rates
to Chevy:). The chevy conversion page that was posted shows that conversions
for the P-v8 are cheap, all cases well under 2 grand. A smart v8 motor
shopper could make that total to be under 3. I'm not with you with the
implied argument that porsches are appreciating assets, 10 grand can buy you a
nice 911 v8 with 400hp installed. The guy that spent over 100k on his 993tt
would be mighty pure, but certainly not necessarily smoking in performance.
>One minor detail Scott...a 911 has an Aluminum case and Aluminum
> cylinders...your chebby motor has a HEAVY cast iron block. You already have
> a bunch of weight hanging behind the rear wheels, WHY put a bunch more back
> there??
One minor detail Mark... A LT5 is all aluminum, an LS1 is all aluminum. You
may want to revisit the v8 page regarding the weight differences of the motors
installed. You can't make this argument well, even with the LT1. Given the
above argument, you want the LS1. Then the porsche would be lighter and
faster. "Why put a bunch more back there" - reinstalling the porsche engine?
Reread the web page on the v8 Mark. Your argument is not valid.
> Scott...I've seen a 911TT at speed...it will leave ANY CRX at will. I've
> been in countless older 930 Turbos with adjustable boost controls, that will
> blow the doors off any CRX. Realize that you can put an awful lot of boost
> to a Porsche Turbo, and once it spools, there are VERY few cars on the road
> that will catch it. I don't care what kind of a CRX it is, and I question
>the mentioned ET BTW, it simply will not touch a Turbo. If you get a chance
>Scott, go drive a Turbo...even an older one. You can't even begin to
>compare the awesome acceleration of one of these cars to an Audi, much less
>any other car.
Mark, you are standing arms akimbo. You "question" the ET? Ok, how bout a
civic at 10.86. Get turbo magazine, the battle of the ET's is in the civics
and in the mitsu/talon TSi's, NOT the porsches. These are documented time
slips. Or take your stopwatch to a local track. Understand Mark, I have
instructed at Porsche club events, I'm familiar with all the turbo cars since
1977, and have driven them. Sorry I do compare them, ALL the time. Maybe
Ned Ritchie will give you a ride in an audi turbo, or a couple other folks
that have 12-13sec ET's. I'm not at all with your argument. It's sheet
metal, man. Put a v8 conversion into a Porsche, it's faster. Why? Cuz a v8
has torque AND HP. A wide band of it. Is it "pure" porsche? Nope, not at
all. But a conversion sure can make reality of "pure" speak for itself.
> I don't care what you do to a 5ktq, since they aren't worth squat, but IMHO,
>there are better platforms for putting some serious power to the ground.
> Personally If I were to go to another engine manufacturer for a transplant,
> I would go to a Porsche 944 Turbo motor...tons of parts available, and cheap
> too. 350HP is easy to get out of that motor. On top of that, you're losing
>the weight of that extra cylinder and not having as much weight hanging out
> in front...heck just ask Ron Wood about his 16V VW motor in his rally car
> =). I should have been clearer as to the models of particular Q's, that it
> might not be a good idea for...that would include the Ur-Q, CQ, '91 200Q,
>and the S-cars. Other than those, I don't see a problem with hacking a 90Q,
>5ktq, or 4kq for some kind of a conversion.
944t car? Er, well, not what you were proposing earlier. Why not just do a
20vt conversion at that point. 350hp is "easy to get out of that motor" too.
And we don't have to adapt anything. Maybe your clarity should have included
a visit to Bob's page and the v8 conversion page, so that you understood WHAT
the project was. BTW, a 200q is the same as a 5ktq.
>I'm well aware of the potential of the Chevy small black...especially the
>TPI motors, and I think many vehicles would be ideal candidates for that
> motor, but there are some cars that it just doesn't make sense for IMHO.
> Again, I really don't care about 5ktq's since they're not worth much money,
> and there are tons available...but for a 911, which is worth a fair bit of
> money, it doesn't make sense, especially considering all the parts available
> and potential of the flat-6. There really isn't much to those motors...heck
> I've helped build several, and I'm fascinated by how much power those motors
> churn out.
Mark, you miss the point again. The potential of a flat 6? How bout the
potential of a v8? There really isn't much to those motors since 1958. Go
back to the webpage and look at the FAQ section to each body style. These are
stock motors. A 911 is a perfect candidate, has been for several years, so
I'm not the only one that disagrees with your assessment. Want to go turbo P
vs v8? How bout a quick visit to the Paxton website?
>As I've mentioned to you in the past, the gearing and traction make up for
>any other shortcomings. This is one of the reasons why I don't consider
>ET's to give accurate HP figures...it's what I like to call "the reality
> factor".
Wait, you are getting mired again. Traction problems make for a lower ET
right? That would translate to a lower hp when calculated, wouldn't it?
Gearing? Well the reality of gearing is that there is an optimum gearing for
an optimum ET for a given vehicle, that can be calculated. If you run
anything different, your HP again calculates less, so does your ET. ET and
MPH are reality, they are the reality of how much HP you get to the ground,
given all the chassis variables. Yours may be more accurate, may not. Bottom
line, your methods will usually be HIGHER than the ET and MPH calculations.
Some research into this would make this point moot. Mark, all your arguments
and defense of the P-cars aside, you just can't beat the laws of physics.
>Scott...that's a myth. It was originally thought in the early '70's that
> the 914 was a much better car than the 911, however it was realized that a
> 911E, 911T, and 911S handled much better, and was much faster on the track.
> The 914 REALLY does not handle that well especially at high speed...as a
>result there were many on-track accidents that killed many drivers, most
> notably in the 914-6. Are you aware that Porsche quietly started buying up
> a large percentage of the 914-6's in the late 70's from people, and started
> destroying them, because of their concern over the car's poor stability and
> accident problems?
Not a myth. A converted (my point) 914 with the 911 parts on it will handle
at speed quite well. A stock 914? Don't really like them myself. A
converted 914 sure can be mighty quick tho when done correctly. I have not
driven a stock 914 in 15years. But I have driven several "converted" ones.
Why did the 911 handle better?
> Scott - Andial has all kinds of parts available, Schrick has cams, as well
>as three or four other sources, pistons are readily available from Mahle,
>stainless valves are available, etc., etc. Pricing depends on what you buy
>and where you look.
The point is? Etc, etc comes up with a HP, your dyno or my ET. We could buy
the adapter, buy a 7000mi (Bob's is btw) LT1, and computer, drop it in. The
motor complete at 350hp can be had for less than your best price on just the
parts above. What do you figure all those parts will give you in terms of HP
and torque? See the point?
> What can a 4 cam 928S motor be bought for complete with
> harness? How much is the custom Bellhousing to engine adapter?
>Look around...you can pick up a motor for what you can pick up a 20vt motor
>for, or even less. As far as bellhousings, call Advanced Adapters...they
> have adapters available for just about everything, including a few 928
> conversions (boat people have used this motor occasionally), or will make
> you an adapter...they're rather reasonable too!
Not enough information. What is the cost of conversion? A 20vt motor bolts
in. That makes the AA adapter price seem kinda key to your whole argument.
Hp? Miles on the motor? How's that chevy looking now?
> I agree...my biggest complaint with Audi engines is the cost, and that's
> what I b*$%& the most about.
Well, not sure I totally agree with you here. Depends on what you are doing.
If you want an MC, they are a dime a dozen, and a great upgrade for a CQ. If
you want a 20vt motor, cost rises, and that is unlikely to change, just not
enough of them. Sure are a lot of other aluminum blocks to look at, that are
cheap. Low miles and cheap is just a bonus.
> Again, I apologize that I didn't go through and pick out the particular
>models that might not be a good idea to convert. This thread was originally
>posted to the 20V List, so that kind of narrowed down the list of cars we
>focus on...being the CQ and 90Q20V.
Yup, but the site was posted too. Your naughty for not taking a look at it,
at all (the first pix on the page is of the 5ktq at the track), before you
jumped on the gun. I might suggest a serious read of the v8 conversion page
to the P-cars that was also posted to the 20v list. They address your "iron
block" weights in every model FAQ. Your "question" of my CRX example, means
you don't gander at Turbo Magazine either.
>Again, fine by me...you guys are the one's putting in the LT1 motor into a
>Q, so I would expect you to have more experience in THAT aspect of it.
Mark, a lot of options were played out here. I have been involved in the mild
to wild for 20 years now, and am happy to try just about anything, from
concept to application. What I saw in your post, were a lot of unfounded
claims, and thinking that just doesn't make sense to me. Experience? Well,
when the one off is complete, it will be done. Kinda like how the boys at
Renegade started 15years ago.
> Again, let me clarify, the majority of my comments were directed towards
> doing the conversion on a Porsche...which I apologize for not clarifying in
>the original reply.
That's fine, maybe a reread of your post would help you understand that some
of us interpreted that your comments were not only directed at P-cars.
However, I disagree with your Pcar assessment as well in regards to the same
conversions. Happy to help 'convert' you to our way of thinking. I'm into
performance. Purity doesn't cut it for me, certainly if there is better. And
there is.
Scott Justusson
QSHIPQ@aol.com
'87 5ktqwRS2
'84 Urq
Board Member: Team LTQ