Re: ad-blitzes, or is that Flag waving

[John Courtney <dendrite@sbt.infi.net>]

Ah Hah!    An honest man!!!!

John

QSHIPQ@aol.com wrote:

> In message <362B3C92.EDA7E6D8@sbt.infi.net> John Courtney writes:
>
> > Being a long-term bimmerphile, I'm having trouble with this image.  The only
> time
> > I've ever been passed by an Audi at the track was if the safety flag was out
> and
> > they were trailering it.
>
> Then Phil P. writes:
>
> >The record speaks for itself.  Before the weight penalty was added,
> >A4 quattros won all seven of the national Touring Car championships
> >they entered.
>
> >Jorg Winkelhof, the chief BMW pilot in the UK, once said that Frank
> >Biela "could win towing a trailer" without the weight penalty.
>
> >The weight penalty they decided to add was exactly equal to the weight
> >of Biela's wife and children - imagine racing with your family's
> >weight in the car.
>
> >Despite it's (almost) 50% power advantage, an M3 is a relatively
> >comfortable target for an ur-quattro in the dry - hard to pass, but
> >easy to wear down.  In the wet, they don't last two corners.
>
> >My comment about the mirror was because someone in a 328i tried to
> >follow me through the twisties from the A412 onto the M25 two weeks
> >ago, and discovered that you need a little more than EDL to stay on
> >the road.
> --
> > Phil Payne
>
> I find that Johns argument to be more valid than Phil, Dave et. al.  Regarding
> the A4q, a couple of problems comparing TCC with our beloved street cars.
> 19in wheels, 343f/330r (that's 13.5in and 13in brakes respectively), 55f/45r
> weight dist, 300hp.  Now even if you could claim the 300hp, you aren't getting
> the rest in a street car.  So, please, racing is fun, but quattro gives the
> edge in high hp, and sometimes in low cf.
>
> Regarding your rain comments, an M3 will not be slammed by the quattro,
> btdrovet against a whole field of quattros, AT the track, all 12 of the
> quattros were modded (including Andersons' Urq), the M3 rock stock with
> Michelin Pilots, not a single pass, not my car either...   I don't find
> chasing M3 to be comfortable in the dry in my Urq, and certainly not with G60
> brakes, btdt.  And in the rain, the M3 isn't at a disadvantage, you guy miss
> chassis dynamics arguments in waving the quattro flag.  Quattro drivelines
> help some in the rain, but given a 50/50 rwd car, vs a 60f/40r car and the
> same tires, your total lap speed isn't going to go to the quattro.  Advance
> this to the braking and chassis dynamics issues (see my previous post), the
> quattro advantage on a street car, isn't easy to make.  Add to this, that
> 'quattro' is just weight every time you are in a straight line, you have a
> waning argument.
>
> Phil, your anecdotes of quattro prowess aside, doesn't change the idea that a
> properly driven M3 all but nixes the quattro advantage.  A quick look at the
> reviews of quattros competition in ANY mag, shows that the quattro advantage,
> just really isn't.  Sometimes you see better braking (but that's a hardware
> issue, not a quattro one), but not often.  Sometimes you see better
> performance numbers, but not often.  Chassis dynamics is getting simpler these
> days.  How does one maintain a 50/50 weight balance for the most amount of
> lateral and de/acceleration dynamics.  That is the win in the game of
> performance.  Comparing race cars is silly, IMO.  None of us drive one.  And
> how many 300HP street A4'qs do you know?  I know of one here in the states.
> And it lacks both the TCC brakes and the wheels.
>
> Bottom line is this:  The M3 out of the box is hard to beat, period.  You can
> put 25grand into an A4, and maybe get to the level the M3 4door has, in terms
> of performance.  But you still have a chassis dynamics problem.  CAUSED by
> that unfair advantage we know as quattro.
>
> Me, I'll save my timing brags for steamboat, there the quattro shines.  BTW,
> the post about the tweeked M3 vs the tweeked A4 at CO motorsports park....  I
> was there.  To put it in perspective, the 90 v8 quattro automatic was only a
> couple seconds behind both those cars.  The A4 had more bux into his mods, and
> the advantage wasn't his, even with the altitude advantage of turbo.  When I'm
> bumping both of them with audis tank of tanks, I'm not sure of the validity of
> that comparo at all.
>
> I'm with John here.  The best comparo?  Bring your stopwatch to a Quattro club
> marque event, get an average lap time in the fastest group at the track of
> choice.  Then when the bimmer boys go there, get an average lap time of the
> fastest group.  BTDT, makes John's trailer analogy quite valid.  Damn watch.
>
> I do love my quattros boys and girls.  But please, this is flag waving, not
> comparos.
>
> Scott Justusson
> QSHIPQ@aol.com
> '87 5ktqwRS2
> '84 Urq