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Re: Stereo

Oh boy,
    Here I go.  Well, I think what Robert Houk said is pretty much a
pretty good summary of the True Sub in Technical Terms.
    Now for the Audiphile Standpoint.  Mine and others.
In Audiophile circles the True Sub is regarded as kind of a Bastard
Child of sorts.  Some like it, MOST dont.   I'm in the latter group.
For the average listener in a home theater it works fine.  Its small and
makes a big Boom.  But in reality when listening to it, it sounds Fat,
Flabby, and VERY Colored.  (No, I'm not Racist.  Thats an Audio Term
refering to how it colors the music instead of giving you the pure sound
you want).  It goes low, and loud, but cant blend into any system I've
heard it in.
    By comparison, the Rell  Subs are Magnificent.  They still use
fairly small Drivers.  8" and 10".  But use much larger enclosures and
equally powerful amps.  Rell Subs can blend seamlessly into any system I
have heard them in.  They take a while to set up and tune but sound
magnificent.  A Rell with a pair of Sonas Faber Grand Piano's hooked up
to some Krell Gear Through Audio Quests Top Line Cabling is one of the
better systems I've heard to date.  Even comparable to  Wilson Watt
Puppies which sell for about 22,000 a pair.  Only system I can recall I
liked better is the Wilson X!-Grand Slam's running through Krell
Monoblocks and components.
    Anyhow, back to my Sub- Comparos.  THe Rell  (is that the right
spelling???) is a great sounding sub.  It goes VERY low but wont shake
the house with unrealistic Bass Levels like many Home Theater Subs do.
Its got the Low Response, but everything is a tradeoff.  To get the
LOUDNESS you are better off with a Giant 15" Sub.  Of course a BUNCH of
Rells would do this as well but $$$$$ would be a limiting factor.  So
that leaves you with something like an M&K MX-300  or the Giant
Servo-COntrolled Velodyne 15" or something of that Caliper if you want
to shake the house and sound good.  Just want to shake the house?  A
couple Sunfires will do it.
    OK, I'll get off the Soap Box.  Feel free to Flame me if you
Disagree.  Or praise me if you agree.  I'll stand here working on my
Finals and Dreaming of getting a Rell for myself and maybe some Sonas
Faber   "Conchertos" (Grand Piano's smaller Cousin)  to listen to.  But
for now I need to fix my NAD amp.
    L8R
        Todd

---------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Houk - WorkGroup Server Firmware <robert.houk@east.sun.com>

Subject: Re: stereo

>   >No kidding.  I remember listening to a single Servo-controlled 7"
sub in a
>   >home enviro. about ten years ago. . .breathtaking.  Speaker quality
and
>   >proper enclosure is the key.

>   all else being equal, a high quality, properly enclosed, servo
controlled
>   15" sub will simply blow away the 7".
>   you cannot escape the laws of physics...

>      I disagree.  I have a sunfire true subwoofer in both theatres in
my home.
>      Driver complements are as follows:
>      1 8" active driver
>      1 8" I passive driver
>      both with 2.5 - 3 " excursions
>      enclosure size is an 11" cube
>      powered by an internal 2700 (two thousand seven hundred) watt
amplifier
>      flat to below 18hz

As Frank said, all else being equal...

A 15" with 2.5-3" excursion will demolish an 8" of the same excursion.
That's Reality(tm) at work.

Further, the simple mechanics of getting an 8" cone to linearly traverse

a distance equal to 25% of its diameter is much trickier than getting a
15" cone to do the same thing for only 12% of its diameter. Remember the

cones are "attached" at the front, and so are not true pistons over 100%

of their radiating surface. Again the 15" wins, hands down, all else
(applied techonolgy) being equal. Now, the 15" will be at a disadvantage

(it will "lose) to the 8" when it comes to driven-mass/driven-area
ratio.
Now, put three or four 8" units against a single 15" woofer . . .

Finally (and I *have* to vent here), it is NOT a 2700-watt amplifier.
I repeat, it is NOT a 2700-watt amplifier. If it were, it would require
a 240V connection, or at minimum a 30-amp (e.g., L5-30) 120V connection,

and it plugs into a "normal" 15-amp wall outlet, right? That alone says
that, at most, it can consume 12A@120V == 1440 watts. That's not power
to the speakers, that total power consumed, half (typically) of which is

dissipated as heat. More Reality(tm) at work. On very shakey ground, I
recall the amp being rated at 6A draw . . . (or was it a 6A fuse? Please

check your Sunfire unit and lemme know). So it may be able to pump out
a few hundred watts into the woofer, but no more.

Read the fine print. Carver is quite the showman. He only claims that
his Magical Miracle amplifier driving the Sunfire woofer _PERFORMS THE
SAME_ as a conventional amplifier rated at 2700watts, driving a
conventional woofer. Kinda like saying a turbo-4cyl has the power of a
much bigger V6, so labeling the engine in 'equivilent' displacement
units -- "2.8L 4cyl".

This is not to say the Sunfire is a fine or horrible unit, I have not
heard it, so I cannot say. Carver is a pretty interesting guy, and has
some really interesting ideas bouncing around that head of his. But,
like AudiQuattros (I had to sneak in AudiContent somehow...),
Reality(tm)
wins out (e.g, AWD doesn't *brake* any better in low-traction conditions

than RWD or FWD, all else being equal, or the WorldsBestEngineers can
still royally **** up the electrics...no matter how "interesting" their
ideas).

                                        -RDH