RE: Re: Adding fuel

["Lawson, Dave" <dlawson@ball.com>]

>> Right now, Dave E is putting forth a great effort to *try* to
>> understand the phenomenon, from the relevent documentation.
>
>My impression was that Dave was trying to make _you_ understand.  There
>seems little wrong with his own understanding.


My impression is that no one has completely and accurately described the
working of a torsen under all the operating conditions. A number of models
have been proposed and questions have been asked about. I view our
exchanges as coming toward a "Torsen Unification Theory" (TUT - tm dl)
which will document how this device operates. 


>> You have decided that personal experience is enough.
>
>Yup.  I think my original statement of: "It flat doesn't happen" perhaps
>needs some qualification.
>
>         "It flat doesn't happen on a properly aligned car."
>
>I'm sorry, but I was trained as a scientist.  About a third of my course
>was about experimentation and measurement science.  Ever since then -
>if it can't be demonstrated, it don't exist.  Theories are developed to
>support experimental results, and are _never_ accepted unless the
>proving experiment can be repeated at will by any other worked in the
>field.  Both my cars have Torsens - neither exhibits spider bite.

But, given you previous posts, you have demonstrated and participated
in a wierd handling *event* in your 100Q turbo estate. This *event* occured
in an otherwise *normal* driving environment, ie known roads, similar 
entrance speed and line through the corner that you had probably taken 
hundreds of times before. Further investigation showed that car was 
out of alignment. The pre - alignment "before" condition/settings were 
not documented or recorded. The car was aligned to Audi factory 
specifications. After the alignment, the car has been driven under your
*normal* driving conditions and no subsequent *events* have been
encountered.

Your scientific theory might be viewed as "all handling characteristics
are based on alignment specifications, since a handling event occured 
when the alignment was out of specification, no further handling events
should occur with the correct alignment settings". And your subsequent 
data has shown that your theory to be true and valid.

My theory for this discussion might look like "all handling characteristics
are based on a complex interaction of a number of parameters which
include alignment, tire material and design, drivetrain configuration, 
engine torque distribution mechanism, available tractive force of
drive surface, vehicle weight distribution, corner radius, relative slip 
angles, etc. Since a handling event occured when the alignment was 
out of specification, correcting the alignment will change the point at 
which handling events can occur." And your subsequent data has shown 
that my theory is true and valid.

As you have shown and what I agree with, is that alignment plays an 
important part in handling events. What I believe is that with the correct
alignment, the handling event is say a 6 sigma event. And with an incorrect
alignment, it becomes a 1 sigma event which occurs more frequently.


>It has to be something else.  Since our hardware is identical, it's
>either the way it's set up or it's the way we're using it.

I think it is a combination of both.

>To claim that an obvious defect of the magnitude of the proposed spider
>bite still exists without recalls in tens or hundreds of thousands of
>vehicles being driven all over the globe beggars belief.  This mailing
>list is the world wide sole source of any such suggestion.

I haven't seen any posts where someone says that there is a defect
and a recall should occur. I view this possible handling trait as an 
undocumented feature and a few people are trying understand the 
operating conditions which are needed to bring this handling trait to the
surface. It sounds like all involved would admit that the torsen is a great 
torque distribution device, and performs its job very well for what 
99.999% of the Audi driving public wants(or needs). It is only under 
extreme operating conditions that we are discussing how this handling trait 
might occur, and I can't even begin to imagine approaching these
conditions on public roads, like coming into corners with the car 
yawed 70-80 degrees to it's velocity vector, or trying to carry way more 
speed than the traction conditions allow, etc.

FWIW
-
Dave Lawson