In a message dated 11/9/99 5:19:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, caliban@sharon.net writes: << old beetle:karman-ghia::new beetle:tt please refute. need amunition. i know he's wrong in the complete analogy, mainly because he is always talking out of his ass, but i don't have the chops and data to convince him. >> i think it's the same chassis.. chris