CIS airflow meter limits HP? (Martin Pajak) /sorry it's long.....

[Dave Aukerman]

All this is great stuff, but the reality is that no such beast exists.  So I
guess therein lies the challenge.  Throw down some names and examples of
such cars and let the believing begin.  Do I want it to be true? You betcha.
Lets face it CIS is a major PITA to work on.  Let alone mod.  Got a vacc.
leak?  Hope you like walking.

Again, show me a street car (I5 turbo please, leave the I4Vdub stuff on
the -other- table) with said mods that can be climbed in and driving on a
daily basis and I'll be the first in line to recreate.  Otherwise, it falls
into the could, should, would category.



----- Original Message -----
From: <J123fs at aol.com>
To: <JShadzi at aol.com>; <quattro at audifans.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: CIS airflow meter limits HP? (Martin Pajak) /sorry it's
long.....


> --
> [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> Maybe you missed my earlier reply:
>
> "Mostly I was making a point that all the Bosch systems (CIS,motronic,
ect..=
> .=2E) use the VERY SAME components, and I rather think that arguing
sematic=
> s on actual airflow through either a mass flow meter or air-meter plate is
=
> moot, as IT WILL FLOW MORE THAN ENOUGH AIR to make BIG HP. The original
que=
> ston was if the CIS airflow meter limits the HP, correct?
> The answer is a qualified no.
> I also stick to my guns regarding if the system "could" make big HP, which
=
> IMHO I believe it could, with proper mods..(stock Bosch, VW/Audi "off the
s=
> helf" parts )
> As far as Dyno figures to back it up, there where many Dyno tests
documente=
> d back in VW/Porsche magazine back in the day (now European Car mag)to
back=
> up my opinion on CIS fuel injection in all of it's various forms;
although=
> admittedly they where based on 4 clyn. Vw, and flat six Porsche motors,
wh=
> ich are close family members to both the Audi motors and injection
systems, =
> so I feel they are valid to base my argument on regarding all this bench
ra=
> cing talk."
>
> With regard to the original question if a Airflow meter is the "ultimate
> restriction" for HP in the system I still stick to my guns stating that it
is
> not the roadblock to HP in the Type 44 system, and if you want to take the
> discussion off the list into some hard science, lets do that, not sling
> verbal mud.
>  And as I stated I have seen plenty of CIS based systems that make big HP,
> both in Magazines and in some race cars, doing just that, (making big HP)
not
> just from one limited experience. I also have twenty years worth of Bosch
> service manuals/info laying around for various fuel systems, and it seems
> they ALL roughly have the same operating parameters; Kinda ironically
funny,
> huh? Without regards to motor size, or HP nonetheless...go
figure...Hummm...
> Better sources of TRULY RELIABLE (if my info will not do) info may be
better
> found off list with some engine builders like Tectonics, or Drake (VW) and
> some of the Porsche race teams that abound out there.
> I do think, as I have worked on many different CIS systems (VW, Porsche,
MB,
> Volvo, maybe some BMW, to name specifics, that give me some basis for my
> info) that there is dramatic variances in the size of some of the
components,
> but they are more or less similar, and they all go back in lineage to some
of
> the original Bosch/Porsche Fuel injection systems that made Big HP in the
low
> teens (x100) in the early turbo Porsche's of yore.
> My almost twenty years of working with CIS and other fine systems does
lead
> me to believe (unlike you) that you could in fact mix and match some
existing
> Bosch FI components to get a system with much higher potential HP figures
> than stock.
> I'm sorry if you do not feel that way, but in reality can you honestly
tell
> me as a fact that CIS Porsche systems are not engineered to handle more
HP?
> Are you on the Bosch payroll as an engineer?
> And do you think that the Bosch engineers did not design in a degree of
> tunably for their systems?
> Can you state as a fact that a MB CIS air flow plate from a 450 SL will
not
> work with an AUDI CIS system for a 2.1 motor?
> Or one from a 3.0 flat six?
> I think they could.
> And, I admit it is just my opinion, based on the facts I have at hand, and
in
> memory.
> As far as how much flow can go through the actual orifice of the CIS meter
> plate, I would suspect that maybe you could go and consult a physics
> reference book regarding fluid dynamics to yield the proper equations.
> If you truly would like me to go pull my college textbooks from the attic
to
> prove my point on flow, I could (I worked my way through college as a
> mechanic), although with great hesitation, as in my experience with some
of
> this list's raves and flame wars I'm inclined to not even bother regarding
> issues that really do not matter, in the big scheme of things.
>  And now I regret even replying to this to begin with, as this seems to
have
> degraded from what could have been a cool technical discussion to one with
> accusatory tones in the writing.
> If I have unwillingly contributed (I think I may have!) to this I
apologize
> now, but I feel sometimes you do have to speak up.
> See ya
> Johnny
>
>
>