Making a CQ from...nothing?

[Ti Kan]

Hi Carl,

Welcome to this forum.

Firstly, I want to steer you to the proper terminology, at least with
respect to common usage on this list.

When one refers to a "Coupe Quattro", it typically refers to the
1990-1991 model.  The "Quattro Coupe" (or sometimes called the
Quattro turbo coupe, or simply the "Ur-Quattro", because it was the
*original* Audi Quattro) was imported for the 1982-1985 model years
to the US.  The UrQ is identified by a more squared-off body style
with flared fenders front and rear.

OK.  With that out of the way, let's touch a bit upon the history
of these models.

Yes, the UrQ is a collectable and it is quite rare in the US.  Hence
you are correct that abusing a perfectly good example would be undesirable.
This model is part of the "type 85" platform family.  The US specification
UrQs all have 160hp 2.1L 5-cyl turbo engines.  Some people have
transplanted the later 2.2L 10V turbo engines from the 5000/200 models
into them with slightly better power, and others have gone the more
radical route of putting a 20V turbo in there.

The later model CQ came to the US in quattro form only.  There was
no front drive version offered here (as they were in Europe).  This
model is part of the newer "type 89" platform generation.  While
the CQ is a lot less rare than the UrQ, it is by no means a common
sight.  Also the CQ was only sold here with the 2.3L 5-cyl 20V normally
aspirated 164hp engine.  In Europe, a variant of the CQ was offered
with the 5-cyl 20V turbo with 220hp and it's called the S2.  Unfortunately
that was not sold in the US.  Some people have converted a CQ into
pseudo-S2s by transplanting a 20V turbo engine into it.  Some have even
gone a step further and made their engines RS2 specification or beyond
(the RS2 is the station wagon version of that car with a 315hp 20V turbo
engine and other enhancements, built for Audi by Porsche, and again,
not sold in the US).

Your idea of transforming a front drive coupe into a quattro thus
really applies to the early Coupe model, sold in the US between the
1982 and 1987 model years.  These are also "type 85".

The early Coupe looks like the UrQ, except that they don't have
flared fenders or integrated bumpers, and they were only offered
with normally aspirated 5-cylinder engines from 100hp to 130hp,
depending on the model year (displacement from 2.1L to 2.3L).

You can put a turbo engine (10V or 20V) into a fwd Coupe, but neither
are simple drop-ins.  Moreover, you cannot simply install a quattro
drivetrain into a fwd Coupe.  The floor pan of the fwd car 
and the rear suspension mounting etc are all different.  Thus, the
only way to convert a Coupe into a quattro would be to cut out the
floor pan of a 4000S quattro and graft it onto a Coupe.  After all,
the Coupe is simply a 2-door coupe version of the 4000 fwd sedan,
and the 4000 quattro has all the bits needed for the conversion.

This begs the question, though, why would one want to do such a
conversion when you can just go with a 4000S quattro as a basis
for performance mods and go from there.  The 4000 quattro model
was sold between the 1984 and 1987 model years and are relatively
plentiful even when compared with the fwd Coupes.  Incidentally,
the 4000 quattro (also known as the 80 quattro in Europe) has
been succesfully campaigned in Group A and other Rally classes
by the factory and by privateers.

Forget about using any body pieces from a 5000 series in any
type of Coupe conversions.  They are a totally different platform.
The 84-91 5000/100/200 models are "type 44".

All quattro models prior to 1990 or so were equipped with 5-cylinder
engines.  The early quattro 5-speed 016 transmissions do not mate
up with any 4-cylinder engine.  There are no 4-cylinder quattros offered
in the US until the 1997 A4 1.8T.  Not all quattro transmissions are
the same.  There are many models used.  The early cars had the 016,
later cars had the 01A, 01E and several others, and each basic type
has gear ratio variations (designated by an additional code) depending
on the model that it was equipped on.  These transmissions are in general
not interchangeable due to differences in shift linkage design, bell
housing to engine compatibility and other concerns.  In short, there is
not a single one-size fit all "quattro transmission".  The proper unit
to use depends on which platform/engine combo you're trying to put it
into.

There are also a few different rear diffs used on the various models.
The most important thing here, of course, is that it must be physically
compatible with the subframe/suspension assembly you're installing on,
and that it has the same final drive ratio as the front.

The Torsen center diff appeared after the 1988 model year.  Prior
to that, there is a open diff with manual locks.  In either case,
the center diff is integrated into the transmission and you don't
have to worry about it with respect to driveshafts.  The rear diff
on most Audi quattros (except the V8 or the Haldex cars) are open
diffs, either with manual locking (some with auto-unlocking at
speeds above 15mph), or with EDL via the ABS system on the post-96 cars.

You state that your goal is to have everything "bolt together relatively
close to correct".  If that was the case, and you use factory-correct
fitments and combination of components, then there should be no need for
you to fabricate any drive shafts.  Just use the stock units.

See these pages some helpful info about car models, platforms,
generations, and engines:

	http://www.amb.org/ti/audi/usmodels.html
	http://www.audi-quattro.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Audi/EngineCode

Also, see the Audi model guide "historical" section on the Audiworld site:

	http://www.audiworld.com/model/historical.html

-Ti
2003 A4 1.8T multitronic
2001 S4 biturbo 6-sp
1984 5000S turbo
1980 4000 2.0 5-sp
-- 
 R 1 3 5  Ti Kan
 |_|_|_|  http://www.amb.org/ti
   | | |  Vorsprung durch Technik
   2 4 6


Carl Payne writes:
> I've searched the FAQ and the list archives looking for answers to the
> below questions and come up empty.  Hope you don't mind the breadth of
> these questions--I'm just new to Audi and believe in turning bolts before
> knowing their re-torque values.
> 
> My wife drives a Subaru XT6 in SCCA Rally competition.  We've decided
> to change to something a bit less...frustrating to work on...before we
> move to "open" class (or, more accurately, out of Group 2).
> 
> Last year, I began searching for a Coupe Quattro, either body style.  What
> I learned was that this is a pretty collectible car, and caging the thing
> up and abusing it regularly isn't the best idea.  So now, here comes the
> meat of my post:
> 
> I'd like to get a coupe body and MAKE IT a 5-speed Quattro.  I'd also like
> it to be reasonably correct WRT smog and passing tech (has to be an engine
> offered in THAT car for THAT year, etc).
> 
> Coupes show up pretty regularly here in Los Angeles, rarely Quattros.
> 
> What is the "non-Quattro" body style I should be looking for?  90?  100?
> 
> What is the correct engine for a CQ?  Might it be a 2.3L ?  What is this
> engine family's name, and what else did it appear in?
> 
> Is there a "hot setup" for this car, like an engine option that is rarer
> (in a CQ) or better balanced, higher HP, etc?  Where would that engine be
> found?
> 
> Does a 4 or 5 cylinder engine HAVE TO BE from a Quattro to go in front of
> a Quattro 5-speed?  Does the crankshaft have provision for a pilot
> bearing, is what I'm asking.
> 
> Are all Quattro 5-speed transmissions the same?  If not, which one should
> I be looking for (family, model, usual/common model found in, etc)?
> 
> Which rear end will fit?  Is the Quattro Coupe's width at issue, or can I
> bolt in one from a 4K or a 5K or any Quattro.
> 
> I'll get a driveshaft made, so can I assume any Torsen diff will suffice?
> 
> Keep in mind modifications are expected.  My goal is to get one that will
> bolt together relatively close to correct and give me CQ performance
> without making people CRINGE when the driver doesn't hear "don't cut."
> 
> Are there any good books on racing or modifying Audi Quattros?
> 
> While I'm looking for all these components here in the Western US, the
> intent of this post is to gather information.  Of that, all is appreciated
> and I thank you in advance.