[Vwdiesel] Vwdiesel Digest, Vol 114, Issue 8

Mon Apr 8 10:04:40 PDT 2013

Hayden, the 2 most elusive. frustrating brake problems I've had turned 
out to be:

1) the proportioning valve (but it sounds as if you've addressed that 
one already). and;

2) a leak between the inner and outer layers of the rear left brake 
hose.  This one was especially tricky.

'Best,
Jamey

On 4/8/2013 9:27 AM, vwdiesel-request at vwfans.com wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: brake frustrations (dieseltdi at verizon.net)
>     2. Re: brake frustrations (DAN SNYDER)
>     3. Re: brake frustrations (James Hansen)
>     4. Re: brake and suspension part advice (raymond greeley)
>     5. Re: brake frustrations (lbaird119 at aol.com)
>     6. Re: brake frustrations (Bryan Belman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 19:26:58 -0500
> From: dieseltdi at verizon.net
> To: val at valchristian.com (Val Christian)
> Cc: vw fans <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake frustrations
> Message-ID: <5BF79B86-7A3C-40FF-9CA0-AA56C5AC5EE7 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> This is on my 82 Jetta.  No leakage anywhere, pedal will not sustain pressure with the car running or not.  Hayden
>
> On Apr 7, 2013, at 6:22 PM, Val Christian <val at mongo.mongobird.com> wrote:
>
>> Hayden,
>>
>> Tell me about the master cylinders you have installed?
>>
>> Most of my TDIs overboost at start, and I am wondering if that could be
>> a contributory factor.
>>
>> Just a WAG idea, as it seems that you have covered everything I'd be
>> going after.
>>
>> Also:
>> a.) are you loosing any fluid
>> b.) any sign of leakage near the booster
>> c.) how does the pedal operate with boost on and off (engine on and off)
>> when you firmly sustain pressure to the brake pedal (say 40# force)
>>
>> I would be chasing the master cylinder, and any linkages to the booster,
>> but frankly it's all guess and habit.  You seem to have covered things.
>>
>>
>>
>>> OK guys, I am about ready to just cut this jetta into pieces and sell it fo=
>>> r scrap!!!  The brake problem STILL eludes me.  Just as a reminder, the car=
>>> has Scirocco rear disc brakes and Cabriolet (rabbit) front discs.    The s=
>>> tory so far: 3 master cylinders (four if you count the original that was in=
>>> the car) so I know the problem doesn't lie there, new rear hard brake line=
>>> s, new brake proportioning valve, removed and cleaned residual brake pressu=
>>> re valves - they work fine, removed and rebuilt both rear brake calipers - =
>>> they operate as they should when the brakes are depressed, I have bleed nea=
>>> rly 2 gallons of brake fluid through the system - no air left, I have visua=
>>> lly inspected all hard lines and soft lines for leaking or swelling - nothi=
>>> ng is apparent but all four wheels seem to bleed just fine with good pressu=
>>> re, but the system is still very mushy and the pedal will go to the floor a=
>>> nd finally, just to really make things odd, when you start the car and the =
>>> brake booster comes on line, you loose ALL pressure in the brake system and=
>>> the pedal will go directly to the floor with NO resistance!!!!!  I have do=
>>> ne a lot of brakes in a lot of different vehicles but I have never had one =
>>> that kicked my butt like this one is doing.  Out side of replacing ALL hard=
>>> and soft lines, anyone got any other suggestions before I call it quits an=
>>> d just part the #$%@# think out?  Hayden
>>>
>>>
>>> =93There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is=
>>> no party of principle.=94 =
>>>
>>>
>>> =93I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for superior=
>>> men if they ran for office, but there can be no doubt that such men do not=
>>> run."
>>>
>>> =93I cannot help fearing that men may reach a point where they look on ever=
>>> y new theory as a danger, every innovation as a toilsome trouble, every soc=
>>> ial advance as a first step toward revolution, and that they may absolutely=
>>> refuse to move at all.=94  Alexis de Tocqueville
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit my website at:  http://mysite.verizon.net/resosxp8/mydieselpages/
>>> Proud owner of:
>>> 2004 Jetta GL PD TDI
>>> 1968 Beetle, my latest project, watch for details
>>> 1982 VW Jetta Coupe with GTD turbo diesel transplant (in progress)
>>> And many, many, many VWs; from a 1947 Beetle (13 Beetles total), to Vans (5=
>>> - 3 splitties, 2 bay window (both were campers), 1 Vanagon Westy, Rabbits =
>>> (3), Karmen Ghia (1), Jettas (9), Passats (2), Dasher (1), New Beetle (1), =
>>> Rabbit Convertible (1) and Rabbit Pickups (3) most now gone but not forgott=
>>> en.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwdiesel mailing list
>>> Vwdiesel at vwfans.com
>>> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/vwdiesel
>>>
> ?There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no party of principle.?
>
> ?I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for superior men if they ran for office, but there can be no doubt that such men do not run."
>
> ?I cannot help fearing that men may reach a point where they look on every new theory as a danger, every innovation as a toilsome trouble, every social advance as a first step toward revolution, and that they may absolutely refuse to move at all.?  Alexis de Tocqueville
>
>
> Visit my website at:  http://mysite.verizon.net/resosxp8/mydieselpages/
> Proud owner of:
> 2004 Jetta GL PD TDI
> 1968 Beetle, my latest project, watch for details
> 1982 VW Jetta Coupe with GTD turbo diesel transplant (in progress)
> And many, many, many VWs; from a 1947 Beetle (13 Beetles total), to Vans (5 - 3 splitties, 2 bay window (both were campers), 1 Vanagon Westy, Rabbits (3), Karmen Ghia (1), Jettas (9), Passats (2), Dasher (1), New Beetle (1), Rabbit Convertible (1) and Rabbit Pickups (3) most now gone but not forgotten.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:35:39 -0400 (EDT)
> From: DAN SNYDER <fancy_dancer at wideopenwest.com>
> To: vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake frustrations
> Message-ID:
> 	<536538965.584154.1365384939440.JavaMail.root at md08.wow.synacor.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> At the risk of pointing out the obvious, are you certain that the pads are already resting on the rotors?  It takes a LOT of brake fluid to fill up the cylinders on disk brakes, and if you have 4 to fill, it'll take several pumps to move the pucks out to where the pads are touching.
>
> Badly warped rotors will cause the same panic situation when you hit the brakes quick, and then NOTHING.
>
> Just my $0.02.
>
> Dan Snyder
> 2009 Jetta Sportwagen TDI DSG - just had its 120,000 mile service.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 20:02:45 -0600
> From: "James Hansen" <jhsg at sasktel.net>
> To: <dieseltdi at verizon.net>
> Cc: 'vw fans' <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake frustrations
> Message-ID: <015c01ce33fd$2b43a900$81cafb00$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
> What Sandy said.  Use a stock car racer trick and find a flat head nail the
> right size to fit in the line, so the nail head blocks the fluid travel when
> you reattach the line to the port, be it at master cylinder, prop valve, or
> caliper, and is easily removable/changeable.  Block off stuff to find the
> trouble area.
> Is there a proportioning valve in there that is just holding up flow?
> When you stomp the pedal and it gets hard temporarily, is it actually
> stopping the wheel rotation... as in are the calipers actually working
> correctly?
> -james
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com [mailto:vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com] On
> Behalf Of dieseltdi at verizon.net
> Sent: April-07-13 6:27 PM
> To: Val Christian
> Cc: vw fans
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake frustrations
>
> This is on my 82 Jetta.  No leakage anywhere, pedal will not sustain
> pressure with the car running or not.  Hayden
>
> On Apr 7, 2013, at 6:22 PM, Val Christian <val at mongo.mongobird.com> wrote:
>
>> Hayden,
>>
>> Tell me about the master cylinders you have installed?
>>
>> Most of my TDIs overboost at start, and I am wondering if that could
>> be a contributory factor.
>>
>> Just a WAG idea, as it seems that you have covered everything I'd be
>> going after.
>>
>> Also:
>> a.) are you loosing any fluid
>> b.) any sign of leakage near the booster
>> c.) how does the pedal operate with boost on and off (engine on and
>> off) when you firmly sustain pressure to the brake pedal (say 40#
>> force)
>>
>> I would be chasing the master cylinder, and any linkages to the
>> booster, but frankly it's all guess and habit.  You seem to have covered
> things.
>>
>>
>>> OK guys, I am about ready to just cut this jetta into pieces and sell
>>> it fo= r scrap!!!  The brake problem STILL eludes me.  Just as a
> reminder, the car=
>>> has Scirocco rear disc brakes and Cabriolet (rabbit) front discs.    The
> s=
>>> tory so far: 3 master cylinders (four if you count the original that
>>> was in= the car) so I know the problem doesn't lie there, new rear
>>> hard brake line= s, new brake proportioning valve, removed and
>>> cleaned residual brake pressu= re valves - they work fine, removed
>>> and rebuilt both rear brake calipers - = they operate as they should
>>> when the brakes are depressed, I have bleed nea= rly 2 gallons of
>>> brake fluid through the system - no air left, I have visua= lly
>>> inspected all hard lines and soft lines for leaking or swelling -
>>> nothi= ng is apparent but all four wheels seem to bleed just fine
>>> with good pressu= re, but the system is still very mushy and the
>>> pedal will go to the floor a= nd finally, just to really make things
>>> odd, when you start the car and the = brake booster comes on line,
>>> you loose ALL pressure in the brake system and= the pedal will go
>>> directly to the floor with NO resistance!!!!!  I have do= ne a lot of
>>> brakes in a lot of different vehicles but I have never had one = that
>>> kicked my butt like this one is doing.  Out side of replacing ALL
>>> hard= and soft lines, anyone got any other suggestions before I call
>>> it quits an= d just part the #$%@# think out?  Hayden
>>>
>>>
>>> =93There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but
>>> there is= no party of principle.=94 =
>>>
>>>
>>> =93I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for
>>> superior= men if they ran for office, but there can be no doubt that
>>> such men do not= run."
>>>
>>> =93I cannot help fearing that men may reach a point where they look
>>> on ever= y new theory as a danger, every innovation as a toilsome
>>> trouble, every soc= ial advance as a first step toward revolution,
>>> and that they may absolutely= refuse to move at all.=94  Alexis de
>>> Tocqueville
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit my website at:
>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/resosxp8/mydieselpages/
>>> Proud owner of:
>>> 2004 Jetta GL PD TDI
>>> 1968 Beetle, my latest project, watch for details
>>> 1982 VW Jetta Coupe with GTD turbo diesel transplant (in progress)
>>> And many, many, many VWs; from a 1947 Beetle (13 Beetles total), to
>>> Vans (5=
>>> - 3 splitties, 2 bay window (both were campers), 1 Vanagon Westy,
>>> Rabbits = (3), Karmen Ghia (1), Jettas (9), Passats (2), Dasher (1),
>>> New Beetle (1), = Rabbit Convertible (1) and Rabbit Pickups (3) most
>>> now gone but not forgott= en.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwdiesel mailing list
>>> Vwdiesel at vwfans.com
>>> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/vwdiesel
>>>
> "There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no
> party of principle."
>
> "I do not know if the people of the United States would vote for superior
> men if they ran for office, but there can be no doubt that such men do not
> run."
>
> "I cannot help fearing that men may reach a point where they look on every
> new theory as a danger, every innovation as a toilsome trouble, every social
> advance as a first step toward revolution, and that they may absolutely
> refuse to move at all."  Alexis de Tocqueville
>
>
> Visit my website at:  http://mysite.verizon.net/resosxp8/mydieselpages/
> Proud owner of:
> 2004 Jetta GL PD TDI
> 1968 Beetle, my latest project, watch for details
> 1982 VW Jetta Coupe with GTD turbo diesel transplant (in progress) And many,
> many, many VWs; from a 1947 Beetle (13 Beetles total), to Vans (5 - 3
> splitties, 2 bay window (both were campers), 1 Vanagon Westy, Rabbits (3),
> Karmen Ghia (1), Jettas (9), Passats (2), Dasher (1), New Beetle (1), Rabbit
> Convertible (1) and Rabbit Pickups (3) most now gone but not forgotten.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Vwdiesel mailing list
> Vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/vwdiesel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 03:45:07 +0000
> From: raymond greeley <rgreeley2 at hotmail.com>
> To: "Vwdiesel at vwfans.com" <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake and suspension part advice
> Message-ID: <BAY162-W46C19EA8AE763705B9FF73EAC50 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> the rear calipers were stuck and dragging, park brake was none functional and of course it is a manual so parked in gear was my park brake. most calipers are fairly reasonable so replacing is better than rebuilding though the rear calipers on the passat and jetta gl's are the same and around 70.0 at autohausz. my mechanic seems think he has a cheaper german source. i think the car has many more years of useful life, especially if i can get it further south and out of the chicago winters, so i am going with the better control arm bushings. thanks to all that responded, i hate to make poor choices on these matters.
> r
>
> To: rgreeley2 at hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake and suspension part advice
> From: lbaird119 at aol.com
> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:29:44 -0400
>
>
> Just in case you didn't realize, to compress the rear calipers you have to turn the piston as you push it in.
>
>
>      Loren
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: raymond greeley <rgreeley2 at hotmail.com>
>
> To: Vwdiesel at vwfans.com <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
>
> Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 3:50 am
>
> Subject: [Vwdiesel] brake and suspension part advice
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello, it has been several years since i have purchased any parts. i now have a
> 90 passat glformer was a 91 jetta gl. it has the rear disk brakes. i need to
> change out the rear calipers (stuck) and several front suspension parts: strut
> bearing,control arm bushing, ball joint. auto hausz has always been my go to
> source are they still. also the  control arm bushings has several makes, the
> meyle is more expensive, are they worth the expense. i am likely going to have
> my mechanic change out most of these parts as he is good and reasonable and
> winter is holding on here in chicago. he does have a source of german parts at
> autohausz pricing though i have not seen his cost on these items yet.
> btw: i may have access to a 1.6 engine na, running and driving, i don't know the
> owner.it is being swapped out for a td. it will be later this spring if any
> interest.
> r 		 	   		
> _______________________________________________
> Vwdiesel mailing list
> Vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/vwdiesel
>
>
>   		 	   		
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 23:51:21 -0400 (EDT)
> From: lbaird119 at aol.com
> To: vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake frustrations
> Message-ID: <8D00223774081F5-FF0-24C4C at webmail-d265.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>    Pull your parking brake up about halfway to working and try them.  I had similar problems with my pu and that "fixes" it.  Worn rear shoes, drums or both.  It's gotten me by for quite a while, until I get time to find the actual problem and fix it.  Need cables too.
>      Loren
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Publius <t_dv at yahoo.com>
> To: dieseltdi <dieseltdi at verizon.net>; 'vw fans' <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>; Brian and Ruth Decker <decker at toledotel.com>
> Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 4:57 pm
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake frustrations
>
>
> i have the same problem with my rabbit PU :O
> he brakes work, but you have to pump them..You can step on the brake pedal and
> t will slowly go to the floor
> leed 5 times, and 3 different master cylinders, no leaks, etcI don't think it
> s the booster, as it would never pump up
>   think there is a vacuum leak somewhere, but gave up trying to find it
> the brakes work, but you have to pump them up
> roy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Bryan Belman <dieselwesty at yahoo.com>
> To: diesel <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake frustrations
> Message-ID:
> 	<1365427656.39098.YahooMailNeo at web140305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> GREAT Diagnostic trick Sandy.? I would not have come up with this one on my own.
> I am going to make 2 of?those emergency plugs up for my tool box as well.
> ?
> ?
>
> Bryan Belman, Pt. Pleasant, NJ
> 04 Jetta Wagon TDI PD, 100hp, 5sp -- running :<)
> 04?Golf TDI PD, 100hp,?5sp Tiptronic Auto?-- running :<)
> 82 Diesel Westy 1.9NA -- running :<)
> 70 Type 1 stock Elm Green Beetle -- Under Restoration :-)
>   
>
> ________________________________
>   From: sandy cameron <scameron at storm.ca>
> To: dieseltdi at verizon.net; diesel <vwdiesel at vwfans.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2013 7:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] brake frustrations
>    
> On 4/7/2013 5:47 PM, dieseltdi at verizon.net wrote:
>
> Ok, let's get down and dirty on this.
>
> Some of the things below I have done in the past to winkle out dastardly defects in the brake systems.
>
> 1)? Make up some plugs from discarded steel brake line? ends.
> I cut them off abt. 2 " from the connector, fold the line over on itself and pound it flat with a hammer, and solder the end of the tube to seal it well.
> If using these home made plugs "on road" Don't depend on solder for safety, pound the lines folded and flat to ensure a heavy foot stomp does not blow them out
>
> This trick allowed me to "limp" home from a long road trip with front brakes only, after a rear line blowout. The front provides 90% of braking effort.
>
> I always have a set of 4 in the glove compartment
>
> 2) Disconnect the 2 lines to the rear of the car at the MC, and plug the holes. Run your tests to prove the MC and front brakes.
>
> Good? reconnect one rear line and try it, and so on.
>
> 3) If still acting up, plug 3 out of 4 and try again, or, plug them ALL and start from there (If the MC is OK) reconnecting one at a time, until you identify the culprit.
>
> You have to divide and conquer when the sneaky buggers are leading you around the mulberry bush like that.
>
> Sandy.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Vwdiesel mailing list
> Vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/vwdiesel
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Vwdiesel mailing list
> Vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/vwdiesel
>
>
> End of Vwdiesel Digest, Vol 114, Issue 8
> ****************************************
>