Re: performance driving q-s..

[QSHIPQ@aol.com]

In a message dated 97-01-13 17:43:05 EST, you write:

<< ..>BTW, Scott's absolutely right about the Ur-Q being only two-wheel drive
...
 ..>I took mine out yesterday and hit my secret "test track" (the roads for
an
 ..>undeveloped subdivision: 3 lanes wide and no curbs!) and learned the hard
 ..>way about the Ur-Qs' handling anomalies.  Yep, I spun it twice ... you
need
 ..>to be REALLY careful lifting off the throttle at the entrance to a turn
 ..>since it goes all freaky if you get it wrong.  Admittedly, I still need
to
 ..>do some work on it -- new control arm bushings, etc. -- but the car is
not
 ..>without a few vices if you drive it at 10/10ths.  (Usual disclaimer:
Don't
 ..>try this at home; professional driver on a closed course...)  
 
 i'm interested in this.  you've got an 85 ur-q.  did you have the centre
locked?
 at what point in the turn were you lifting off?
 
 i know that my old 85 ur-q gave me 2 big moments which scared me shitless
and
 both occured when the inside front wheel lost traction (lifted).  locking
the centre
 aleviated the snap oversteer, but not completely.  the guy i sold the car to

 eventually wrote it off (backwards through a hedge, barrel rolled into a
field,
 walked away without a scratch), due to the same symptom (centre unlocked).
 
 you'll have to trust me on this, but i have lifted the inside front on my
20v ur-q and
 not suffered the same snap, the car is much more comfortable in these
conditions.
 the 20v will get angry if you break front traction and have your boot in at
the same
 time.  then you need both hands on the wheel to control the (heavy) torque
steer.
 but thats just bad technique.
  >>
.....  The snap exists in the torsen more than NT, IMO worse for control than
the NT locked, a NT locked is a very predicatable sideways understeer drift
and roll right into the weeds, read Buffum's book...  All gen I awd systems
do elicit this behavior, what I have found comparing the 5ktq to the Urq is
that the wheelbase factor becomes the major force in play here...  I went to
Steamboat last year (and my racing background is proRally and SS), and put
the paces on the 5ktq, and figgrd that the car will snap when you totally
lift throttle turning, the key is to lift while in a straight line, brake
there, and only power on, or steady throttle while turning, you lift, you
spin, the lower the cf, the exponential the importance....  That has been my
experience for 5 years with the 5ktq, the lower the cf, the easier it
happens, but it does on dry or slick, no doubt...  Q's dictate the Skip
Barber teachings of brake and shift and set your turn speed in a straight
line, when you turn, you either blew it, or you accelerate out, making a
fantastic turn out....  Locking the diffs (and I have the post mortem
Steamboat post for the technicals of this) tends to create understeer, but at
the gain of very predictable control....  Locking the rear creates understeer
at the LACK of control, except past apex, then the gains in low cf are
better, and control of power right on...

While driving the Urq in 4-6in of wet/dry snow a couple weekends ago, I find
the characteristics of the car familiar, tho the shorter wheelbase makes all
the  characteristics of the 5ktq just exponentially more pronounced....  I
firmly believe this is a suspension problem that can be easily addressed in
the urq, not so easy in the high rear roll center 5ktq/avants......  I did
not have the ability to lock the diffs, and the conditions were of very low
cf (the 225/50 GT+4 only made this more fun), and the edge was found quicker
than the 5ktq....  My own feeling was of more chassis control tho, mostly cuz
the lack of hi rear end weight offsets the tighter wheelbase....    What you
do get, esp with the urq is a very tight COG that tends to favour the front
wheels, until you load them in the middle of a turn (lift throttle), then the
rear tries to do the f/r swap, and fast....  At 10/10ths this is exibited
sooner in the lift on a torsen car than a non torsen car, but both exibit the
behavior to some extent.....  The locking of the centers puts the advantage
to the non torsen, cuz the "hunt" the torsen exibits, is just plain
unacceptable for 9/10ths> driving....  You can predict understeer in gen I,
you just CAN'T in gen II...... 

Jeff, lift throttle snap, differs from lift throttle oversteer, and to me the
latter is a tough act to catch, and impossible in the torsen.....  The key is
to keep your foot in the throttle in a turn all the time (torsen or non)....
 My technique has always been to go 1 car length beyond where you normally
would turn in, turn hard (shooting before apex) and power out all the way,
either neutral or full, but not lift....  In the torsen that's not possible,
cuz the "hunt" begins before lift throttle, and creates a suspension nitemare
to correct for the best of drivers.....  

Looking forward to comparing notes from last year to the Urq this year at
steamboat....  I'm committed to getting this figgured out with the new
toy.......   Report will certainly follow....  In the meantime, jeff, stay
unlocked in turns in the dry, the non torsen rewards a great entrance with a
great exit....  In low cf, take the locked center option all the time,
locking the rear at the apex (this is a hi hp act by the way), unlock before
next turn in tho....  

Torsen?  I say enjoy it for what it is, it's great up to the limit, it stops
being your friend at 8.5/10ths.... You reach it, you better be REALLY good or
have Jeff's 3 lanes, take it from one who's there more often than not, those
dogs bite ya, and hard.....  There is a reason why no race car uses the
torsen application, the predictability of a set split at 8.5/10ths> , tho
nary 50/50, at least you can count on one constant.....

Scott
QSHIPQ@aol.com
2 X '87 5ktqRS2
1 X '84 Urq