ME, BMW and Quattro

[QSHIPQ <QSHIPQ@aol.com>]

Dave writes, some time back:

>...
>scott bases everything on track performance and delights in explaining how
>awesome the m3 is (50:50 weight distrbution and all) on the track (mmm,
almost
>got beaten by the vw golf deisel in the nurburgring 24hrs).  how compromised
>the quattro is (front weight destribution and all).  and as soon as someone
>points out that quattro (as we know it) has won a bunch of circuit titles
(you
>know the ones), scott says "oh no, thats specialised race machinery"
>its still quattro, with all its advantages and disadvantages.  how did
quattro
>help audi win dtm?  trans-am? super touring?  in each case, the front-
hanging,
>longitudional engine and drivetrain was there.
Ok, Dave.  Let's see, here's some reference for your edification:
*  Audi 200 quattro Trans Am = 6spd + 510hp + 330/304mm f/r brakes 12X16
wheels@ 2453lbs
*  Audi 90 quattro IMSA -GTO = 6spd + 720hp + 330/330mm f/r brakes 14X17 tires
@ 2653lbs
*  Audi v8 quattro DTM = 6spd + 420hp + 330/335mm f/r brakes  255 x 18 tires@
2684lbs
*  Audi v8 quattro DTM = 6spd + 470hp + 373/355mm f/r brakes  265 x 19 tires@
2750lbs
*  Audi 80 quattro 16V 2.0L= 6spd + 272hp + 330/350mm f/r brakes 215 x 19
tires@ 2310lbs
*  Audi 80 competition 2.0L = 6spd + 285hp + 343/350mm f/r brakes 215 x19
tires @ 2310lbs
*  Audi A4 Supertouring 2.0L = 6spd + 285hp + 343/330mm f/r brakes 215 x 19
tires @ 2288lbs

So, although your point seems valid, one could argue that the street cars
maybe lack:
wheel diameter + width
brake diameter
6spds (your RS2 so noted)
HP
HP:weight ratio
Engine (2.0L)
weight distribution (I wonder how close the above are to 50/50?)
HP
HP
HP
HP

I can look at the above and tell you exactly why audi won in racing.  And
exactly what they DIDN'T do in the street cars.  We could go further and
explore the diffs, the specific lack of swaybars, and a few other major
differences.  The formula for the above success doesn't even show your RS2 to
be a crackerjack with 4puck 944 club sport brakes.  And you have the highest
audi production HP/Weight ratio with your RS2 at 310hp and what 3800lbs?  I
don't need to argue more than with my calculator you might not have the point
here you figure.  Right now, you could count the number of audis running any
of those above HP numbers on one hand (or less).  Ned might get close soon, we
hope.
   

>perhaps, just perhaps scott (not sure if your ego is up to this), audi know
>something that you don't about quattro?
Sure, tho I look at high hp/weight ratios big brakes and 6spds as things audi
knew and didn't share.  That's all.  Hp/weight advantage goes to quattro, but
we don't run those numbers, so the point is lost to the rest of the buying
public. Torsen center diff argument aside.

>they've btdt.  you haven't.  i rest my case.
I've tried, and will continue.  And will be wrenching on an S2 Group A car
this season in ProRally to help me learn.  I've seen the trans out of the car,
and been over it with a fine eye, and even Group A has massive differences to
the street cars you name desire.

>in summary, if you can't understand the advantages of awd, you need to read
>some more, or brush up your physics...
High horsepower low weight, advantage quattro.  Posted right here in the
archives over 3 years ago.  

>as for the rest of the *street* machines.  they are not meant for the track,
so
>to take them to the track is foolish (fun).  on the road, much more
difficult,
>and harder.  been in an m3 which has hit a mid-corner bump, and you'll know
>what i mean.  driven an m3 hard from point-to-point (over 640kms), and i
could
>not keep the pace i could in my ur-q.  had the same experience with a friend
in
>his ferrari f355 and my rs2.  so posted.  on the cicuit.  not a chance.
>do i rate bmw.  yes i do, i've taken enough race photos of them over the
years.
 >do i rate the m3?  yes i do.  better or worse than the rs2?  neither.  show
me
>the driver..
Still interested in apples to apples.  How's your RS2 compare to a 540IM?
Show me the driver too, cuz the "pace" should be moot with the M3 and the
20vUrq, IMO.  Especially, since europe being different and all, the M3 enjoys
a 46hp advantage in europe it loses here.  A track is the equalizer, a lap, a
point of reference, to street and race cars.  What I found unsettling is all
that front weight bias in the quattro as you overcook a turn going downhill.
Still happy to buy you a beer, and show you a goofball driver make a couple
cars dance.

No offense taken at the post, tho it seems somewhat agressive, Dave.  The
documentation of the racing argument just doesn't support a "street
correlation".  Look at the above, what's the same to you?

HTH

Scott Justusson
QSHIPQ@aol.com